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Author Topic: Team behind jammer line  (Read 31507 times)

Great Barrier Ref

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Re: Team behind jammer line
« Reply #15 on: June 06, 2011, 09:06:19 pm »
My point of clarification is that reforming a pack does not equal yielding advantage. When the first of the back group of blockers is within 10 feet of the group that lined up behind the jammer, a pack is defined, but they still have not yielded their advantage until they are even with, or passed by, the approaching blockers. If they start to move forward when the pack is defined, they are still subject to major false start penalties since they did not yield advantage per the WFDTA Rules committee statement.

Is this correct?

Yep.

Offline Tom Schaefges

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Re: Team behind jammer line
« Reply #16 on: June 06, 2011, 09:44:10 pm »
I have an Official WFTDA Rules Committee answer for your question :

[rule]A blocker who is on the track in front of the pivot line, but behind the jammer line has false started and must yield to the pack by allowing it to catch up to or pass them before skating forwards.  The skater may chose to speed up their yield by skating clockwise to rejoin the back of the pack, but is not required to skate clockwise to complete the yield.  Failing to yield to the pack will result in a false start major penalty.  Officially.  There is no other penalty applied because they are either patiently waiting for the pack to catch and pass them (also satisfying the requirements for returning to play), or they have skated forward and received a major false start and should be signaled to the box.[/rule]

I hesitate to ask, but that answer appears to assume that there's at least one blocker from each team ahead of the jammer line to form a pack. If the blockers behind the jammer line move foreward (CCW) they're going to get called for a major penalty, but in the case we're talking about in which all blockers from one team are behind the jammer line and there's no pack, does it make sense to call it Failure to Reform instead of False Start for the stats?

And one more question: If the Blue jammer were to line up behind the Blue blockers who are all behind the jammer line if we look at the order from front to back we have (Blue Blockers) - Pivot Line - (Purple blockers) - Jammer line - (Blue jammer) no matter what the order appears on the track. So to become lead jammer, is it correct that the Blue jammer must skate past the Blue blockers, pass the Purple blockers, then pass the Blue blockers (again)? Using FNZebra's spiral concept,  she has to skate up the spiral and when she skates past the Blue blockers the first time she is not passing them because they actually are on the level above. So past <> passed.

Offline Cliquework

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Re: Team behind jammer line
« Reply #17 on: June 06, 2011, 10:31:06 pm »
I had a similar question. I believe this is the answer:

[rule]3.4.1.4During a no pack situation (per Section 4.1.2), the Jammer must pass all Blockers to become Lead Jammer.[/rule]

"In front" as far a track position goes essentially has no importance during no pack for lead jammer purposes. Should a pack reform before all are passed, then we have a foremost blocker, etc... position matters for lead purposes.
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Offline Tom Schaefges

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Re: Team behind jammer line
« Reply #18 on: June 06, 2011, 10:35:26 pm »
Missed that, thanks!

Offline FNZebra

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Re: Team behind jammer line
« Reply #19 on: June 06, 2011, 10:43:33 pm »
I hesitate to ask, but that answer appears to assume that there's at least one blocker from each team ahead of the jammer line to form a pack. If the blockers behind the jammer line move foreward (CCW) they're going to get called for a major penalty, but in the case we're talking about in which all blockers from one team are behind the jammer line and there's no pack, does it make sense to call it Failure to Reform instead of False Start for the stats?

Don't overthink this one, just because it looks extra weird. You should call it exactly as if the false-starting team lined up at the apex of turns 1 & 2.

There is never a pack at the beginning of the jam. In this case, if the false starting team does remain stationary, then the pack would initially form somewhere near the middle of turn 4.

And one more question: If the Blue jammer were to line up behind the Blue blockers who are all behind the jammer line if we look at the order from front to back we have (Blue Blockers) - Pivot Line - (Purple blockers) - Jammer line - (Blue jammer) no matter what the order appears on the track. So to become lead jammer, is it correct that the Blue jammer must skate past the Blue blockers, pass the Purple blockers, then pass the Blue blockers (again)? Using FNZebra's spiral concept,  she has to skate up the spiral and when she skates past the Blue blockers the first time she is not passing them because they actually are on the level above. So past <> passed.

Let's not call the spiral theory mine. I can't take credit for it. ;)

Correct, in your new Blue v Purple scenario, the Blue Jammer must skate up the spiral and pass the rest of the Blue team "again" to earn lead.
« Last Edit: June 06, 2011, 10:45:59 pm by FNZebra »
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Offline Tom Schaefges

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Re: Team behind jammer line
« Reply #20 on: June 06, 2011, 10:49:54 pm »
Correct, in your new Blue v Purple scenario, the Jammer must skate up the spiral and pass the rest of the team "again" to earn lead.

This seems to contradict Cliquework's comment. Am I reading it wrong? Sorry to belabor this, but I know I'll be seeing this arrangement again soon.

I had a similar question. I believe this is the answer:

[rule]3.4.1.4During a no pack situation (per Section 4.1.2), the Jammer must pass all Blockers to become Lead Jammer.[/rule]

"In front" as far a track position goes essentially has no importance during no pack for lead jammer purposes. Should a pack reform before all are passed, then we have a foremost blocker, etc... position matters for lead purposes.

Offline The Gorram Reaver

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Re: Team behind jammer line
« Reply #21 on: June 06, 2011, 11:23:04 pm »
Correct, in your new Blue v Purple scenario, the Jammer must skate up the spiral and pass the rest of the team "again" to earn lead.

This seems to contradict Cliquework's comment. Am I reading it wrong? Sorry to belabor this, but I know I'll be seeing this arrangement again soon.

You're not reading it wrong; Cliquework is incorrect (sorry, Clique).

In any no pack situation, a Jammer must have legally passed all Blockers at some point to earn lead jammer status, but she must also be positioned in front of all Blockers on the track.  So, in the situation you're describing, it doesn't matter if the Blue Jammer has already passed the Blue Blockers, she is still behind them (because they're way out in front) and cannot earn Lead Jammer status until she is in front of them (has passed them again).
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Offline Alonzo Barricades

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Re: Team behind jammer line
« Reply #22 on: June 07, 2011, 12:52:53 am »
Do you consider that if the blue blocker don't skate backward (just staying where they are) they are attempting to reform a pack ?
They don't stop actively, because they are already stoped. Does it make a difrerence ?

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Re: Team behind jammer line
« Reply #23 on: June 07, 2011, 01:13:56 am »
Do you consider that if the blue blocker don't skate backward (just staying where they are) they are attempting to reform a pack ?
Yes... being stopped ahead of the others is an attempt to reform the pack. The rules never require skaters to skate clockwise.

Quote
They don't stop actively, because they are already stoped. Does it make a difrerence ?
No
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Offline Hans Oferbach

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Re: Team behind jammer line
« Reply #24 on: June 07, 2011, 02:52:11 am »
3.4.1........the lead jammer is the first jammer to pass the foremost in play blocker legally and in bounds....... [this being relevant if one of the team doesn't make it behind the jammer line in time, therefore allowing a pack to be called (once in proximity)]

but since all blockers in this situation are behind the jammer line and there is "no pack" we reference 3.4.1.4 - during a no pack situation the jammer must pass all blockers to become lead jammer.  ;D
Keep turnin left...

Offline The Gorram Reaver

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Re: Team behind jammer line
« Reply #25 on: June 07, 2011, 04:05:30 am »
3.4.1........the lead jammer is the first jammer to pass the foremost in play blocker legally and in bounds....... [this being relevant if one of the team doesn't make it behind the jammer line in time, therefore allowing a pack to be called (once in proximity)]

but since all blockers in this situation are behind the jammer line and there is "no pack" we reference 3.4.1.4 - during a no pack situation the jammer must pass all blockers to become lead jammer.  ;D

Yes, however...  This specific question was asked on the WFTDA forums and the answer was...
In any no pack situation, a Jammer must have legally passed all Blockers at some point to earn lead jammer status, but she must also be positioned in front of all Blockers on the track.

I'm very sorry, because I hate having to say "You've got to trust me on this," but there is nothing published to which I can point you.  You will have to take my word that, in Sanctioned/Regulation play, we do not award Lead Jammer status until the Jammer is positioned in front of all Blockers on the track regardless of when she passed them, whether that means being in front of all Blockers who are within a forty foot area who are not currently forming a pack or whether it means being in front of Blockers who have chosen to line up as far forward as they can make themselves on the track.

Rule 3.4.1.4 is not meant to imply that Jammers need not be in front of all Blockers to gain Lead Jammer status, it is meant to imply that Blockers who are out of play because of a No Pack situation still need to be passed (in other words, 3.4.1.3 does not apply), and that other conditions still need to be met.
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Offline Darkjester

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Re: Team behind jammer line
« Reply #26 on: June 07, 2011, 05:01:18 am »
Holy brain splode batman!

This simply makes the game waaaaaaay too complicated and technically not by anything that in and of itself is written in the rules. Remember when someone alluded to "If you have to piece together parts of rules/clarifications to make an argument, its probably not a good argument?"

I personally don't think of the derby track as a spiral, but I can see where some refs would; My reasoning for not thinking of it as a spiral is simplicity.  Yes, the blockers behind the jammer line are technically 'way ahead' of the pivot line. However, if they skate forward across the jammer line and do not impact the jammers, I wouldn't give them a false start Major (failing to yield advantage) as they didn't gain any advantage.

Likewise, I wouldn't consider it a "No Pack" If they remained within 10ft of the opposing blockers.

The Opposing blockers  don't have to 'stand still' or risk penalties. The rules still say there won't be any destruction of pack penalties if at the beginning of the jam 1 team skates off while the other remains behind.

6.10.2.1.2
At the start of a jam if one team skates forward and the opposing team remains stationary, upon a No Pack scenario the Jammer start whistle will blow and no penalties for illegally destroying the pack shall be enforced.

Sometimes I think we make things 'too' difficult.
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Offline Brother Grim

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Re: Team behind jammer line
« Reply #27 on: June 07, 2011, 05:32:32 am »
For simplicity's sake here's how I view it.

Think of it as a straight line race. The Pivot line is the start. The Jammer line is the finish. Everyone lines up behind the "starting line", spread  backwards for reasons that really don't matter. Each time they pass the Jammer line a new race begins. If someone is near the "finish line" they must be in front of everyone because they're about to begin the next race.

We already count passes in increasing numbers, we talk about Lap Points indicating someone being further ahead than someone else, we have penalties for re-entering from in front or behind the pack, all of which point to the idea of people being in the same linear location. Like any long race, the derby track is designed for use of space. Imagine it like a mile long race, with the exception of Jammers who once they've overtaken everyone they stop, let the pack pass, and then go through again. If a pack skater were to sprint ahead or drop behind they would no longer be in that same place on that line as everyone else.
Brother Grim

Offline mick hawkins

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Re: Team behind jammer line
« Reply #28 on: June 07, 2011, 06:24:39 am »
Holy brain splode batman!

This simply makes the game waaaaaaay too complicated and technically not by anything that in and of itself is written in the rules. Remember when someone alluded to "If you have to piece together parts of rules/clarifications to make an argument, its probably not a good argument?"

I personally don't think of the derby track as a spiral, but I can see where some refs would; My reasoning for not thinking of it as a spiral is simplicity.  Yes, the blockers behind the jammer line are technically 'way ahead' of the pivot line. However, if they skate forward across the jammer line and do not impact the jammers, I wouldn't give them a false start Major (failing to yield advantage) as they didn't gain any advantage.

Likewise, I wouldn't consider it a "No Pack" If they remained within 10ft of the opposing blockers.

The Opposing blockers  don't have to 'stand still' or risk penalties. The rules still say there won't be any destruction of pack penalties if at the beginning of the jam 1 team skates off while the other remains behind.

6.10.2.1.2
At the start of a jam if one team skates forward and the opposing team remains stationary, upon a No Pack scenario the Jammer start whistle will blow and no penalties for illegally destroying the pack shall be enforced.

Sometimes I think we make things 'too' difficult.


We dont make things difficult - skaters (and entire teams) who line up somewhere they arent supposed to are the ones making things difficult.   ;)

I like the spiral.

It makes WAY more sense than considering a skater to be both infront of and behind someone at the same time.
« Last Edit: June 07, 2011, 08:30:31 am by mick hawkins »
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Offline The Gorram Reaver

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Re: Team behind jammer line
« Reply #29 on: June 07, 2011, 08:39:23 am »
Holy brain splode batman!

This simply makes the game waaaaaaay too complicated and technically not by anything that in and of itself is written in the rules. Remember when someone alluded to "If you have to piece together parts of rules/clarifications to make an argument, its probably not a good argument?"

I personally don't think of the derby track as a spiral, but I can see where some refs would; My reasoning for not thinking of it as a spiral is simplicity.  Yes, the blockers behind the jammer line are technically 'way ahead' of the pivot line. However, if they skate forward across the jammer line and do not impact the jammers, I wouldn't give them a false start Major (failing to yield advantage) as they didn't gain any advantage.

Likewise, I wouldn't consider it a "No Pack" If they remained within 10ft of the opposing blockers.

The Opposing blockers  don't have to 'stand still' or risk penalties. The rules still say there won't be any destruction of pack penalties if at the beginning of the jam 1 team skates off while the other remains behind.

6.10.2.1.2
At the start of a jam if one team skates forward and the opposing team remains stationary, upon a No Pack scenario the Jammer start whistle will blow and no penalties for illegally destroying the pack shall be enforced.

Sometimes I think we make things 'too' difficult.


You are certainly welcome to call the game however you choose.  But those of us who ref Regulation and Sanctioned games, or who ref for leagues that participate in Regulation and Sanctioned play, have an obligation to call the game the way it is called in Regulation and Sanctioned play.  Those who aspire to ref at that level of play will certainly want to know how the rules are applied at that level.  Those who aspire to ref at that level and choose to call the game any way they choose rather than in line with the interpretations used to establish consistency at that level will certainly receive feedback indicating that they need to change the way they are calling the game if they wish to continue officiating at that level.

And no, there really isn't anything pieced together about this.  A Jammer must be in front of all Blockers on the track to earn Lead Jammer status, even during a no pack situation.  The only way she can earn Lead Jammer status without being in front of all Blockers on the track is by there being a defined pack and by there being one or more Blockers out of play in front of that pack; she will earn Lead Jammer status as soon as she is in front of the players who are in the Engagement Zone.
The Gorram Reaver
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