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Author Topic: Team behind jammer line  (Read 31555 times)

Offline Hans Oferbach

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Re: Team behind jammer line
« Reply #30 on: June 07, 2011, 08:50:07 am »
i believe that's what i was eluding to, sorry if i wasn't clear enough...  :-[
Keep turnin left...

Offline FNZebra

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Re: Team behind jammer line
« Reply #31 on: June 07, 2011, 01:38:41 pm »
Sometimes I think we make things 'too' difficult.

A pack cannot form across the Jammer line at the start -- that's really really the hardest thing in this scenario. Well, and maybe having to call  "no pack" when there appears to have been one formed across the Jammer line.

This one isn't really that difficult, honestly, once you have it broken down. And besides, it doesn't really matter so much how we want to call it, what matters is how the skaters want it called. ;)
You will bout as you practice.


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FN Zebra
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Bloomington, Indianer

Offline Cliquework

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Re: Team behind jammer line
« Reply #32 on: June 07, 2011, 04:19:19 pm »
Quote
In any no pack situation, a Jammer must have legally passed all Blockers at some point to earn lead jammer status, but she must also be positioned in front of all Blockers on the track

While I agree with this in concept in general, I can find nothing that supports that in the rules. Originally I felt as you did, but "in front of all" or not doesn't appear to come into it. I'm not convinced yet. You are only quoting yourself there, and I'm not sure you should be. Not because you are wrong, but from where it came from.

Quote
I'm very sorry, because I hate having to say "You've got to trust me on this," but there is nothing published to which I can point you.  You will have to take my word that, in Sanctioned/Regulation play, we do not award Lead Jammer status until the Jammer is positioned in front of all Blockers on the track regardless of when she passed them, whether that means being in front of all Blockers who are within a forty foot area who are not currently forming a pack or whether it means being in front of Blockers who have chosen to line up as far forward as they can make themselves on the track.

Rule 3.4.1.4 is not meant to imply that Jammers need not be in front of all Blockers to gain Lead Jammer status, it is meant to imply that Blockers who are out of play because of a No Pack situation still need to be passed (in other words, 3.4.1.3 does not apply), and that other conditions still need to be met.

Can you not point to anything that confirms your reasoning? As you say, it isn't written anywhere. Nothing stating that the intent is for 3.4.1.4 not to apply here. This is a very new situation. Prior to this clarification (in front/behind), any no pack/lead jammer situation you could come up with would involve the jammer being in front of all of them when she passed all of them, so I don't feel it's analagous. This situation is too new to have a definitive answer like that stating that "this rule doesn't apply or wasn't the intent". Seems to me yet another of the many consequence of this clarification, to which I don't believe it was forseen. Just my belief there.

While I still feel the jammer would be lead, I suppose you could say the verdict is still out until clarified. I suggest deciding on how you interpret it and bring it up in the captains meeting if you feel it necessary.
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Offline howie~swerve

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Re: Team behind jammer line
« Reply #33 on: June 07, 2011, 04:46:23 pm »
Where circles begin
Is known only in drawing.
One crane parts the sky.

Rollergirls of Central Kentucky (Lexington, KY)
"To protect and to swerve."

Offline Cliquework

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Re: Team behind jammer line
« Reply #34 on: June 07, 2011, 04:49:51 pm »
Well I'm at peace now.
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Offline howie~swerve

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Re: Team behind jammer line
« Reply #35 on: June 07, 2011, 05:48:16 pm »
yeah, I just figured that since this is basically an issue of metaphysics -- time for a little zen poetry.

It's possible we need advice from some serious mathematicians.  It's also possible that the WFTDA Rules Committee has been taken over by a cadre of hard-core Derridean deconstructionists who insist on the uniqueness of each iterative performance of the "lap".  In this way, the "jamline" must be consciously established as the originary epistemic break that structures our understanding of "before" and "after", and only subsequently appears naturalized as part of a continuum.


either way, this makes my head hurt as much as anything I've run across. :)

h~




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"To protect and to swerve."

Offline Bishop

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Re: Team behind jammer line
« Reply #36 on: June 07, 2011, 06:59:41 pm »
Recommended Resources:WFTDA Rules Central, WFTDA officiating & Successful Sports Officiating
Propose rule changes at timeout.wftda.com.

Offline The Gorram Reaver

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Re: Team behind jammer line
« Reply #37 on: June 07, 2011, 09:33:33 pm »

I've asked for additional feedback on the WFTDA forum (i.e. it's been nearly two weeks & nobody has contradicted this interpretation, so does that mean the prior dissenting opinions are no longer dissenting?).

In addition to the portions of the rules cited above, my understanding is that 3.3.1.4, as a subset of 3.4.1, is not meant to override the need for a Jammer to be positioned in front of all Blockers to earn Lead Jammer status, only to specify that those skaters who are out of play due to a No Pack situation must still be passed legally & in bounds.

Tanks to Bishop for knowing/finding/posting which rules point to the foundational arguments.  My apologies for not tracking them down myself.  This is clearly an indication that I should be spending less time talking about rules on Zebra Huddle & more time doing all the officiating organizing/admin tasks that are taking up most of my brain right now.  Because if I take the time to get them done, I'll have more brain space for Zebra Huddle, right?

And no, I do not have a Zebra Huddle problem.  So you can all (Noah Tall, Em Power, anyone else) just shut it down right now.
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Offline Major Wood

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Re: Team behind jammer line
« Reply #38 on: June 07, 2011, 09:56:24 pm »
I'm now on board with the spiral staircase theory. The behind the jammer line false start clarification is all we need to tidy this up.
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Offline Darkjester

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Re: Team behind jammer line
« Reply #39 on: June 07, 2011, 11:54:58 pm »


You are certainly welcome to call the game however you choose.  But those of us who ref Regulation and Sanctioned games, or who ref for leagues that participate in Regulation and Sanctioned play, have an obligation to call the game the way it is called in Regulation and Sanctioned play.  Those who aspire to ref at that level of play will certainly want to know how the rules are applied at that level.  Those who aspire to ref at that level and choose to call the game any way they choose rather than in line with the interpretations used to establish consistency at that level will certainly receive feedback indicating that they need to change the way they are calling the game if they wish to continue officiating at that level.

And no, there really isn't anything pieced together about this.  A Jammer must be in front of all Blockers on the track to earn Lead Jammer status, even during a no pack situation.  The only way she can earn Lead Jammer status without being in front of all Blockers on the track is by there being a defined pack and by there being one or more Blockers out of play in front of that pack; she will earn Lead Jammer status as soon as she is in front of the players who are in the Engagement Zone.

You know I have mad love for you Reaver ( I mean who couldn't love a firefly reference?),

But my response was in regards to the "not being a pack" even though they are less than 10ft apart. Bringing in Sanctioned and Regulation play into it isn't an issue afaik WFTDA hasn't made any reference to the Spiral theory published, or stated that there isn't a pack that crosses the Jammer line.
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Offline Hans Oferbach

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Re: Team behind jammer line
« Reply #40 on: June 08, 2011, 12:00:26 am »
so just to add to the head explosions, what is the story if the other team rushes back behind the jammer line before the whistle too? just false start minors for all, jammers released immediately, carry on?
Keep turnin left...

Offline The Gorram Reaver

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Re: Team behind jammer line
« Reply #41 on: June 08, 2011, 12:13:32 am »
But my response was in regards to the "not being a pack" even though they are less than 10ft apart. Bringing in Sanctioned and Regulation play into it isn't an issue afaik WFTDA hasn't made any reference to the Spiral theory published, or stated that there isn't a pack that crosses the Jammer line.

Because of the clarification provided by WFTDA Rules Committee...
I have an Official WFTDA Rules Committee answer for your question :

[rule]A blocker who is on the track in front of the pivot line, but behind the jammer line has false started and must yield to the pack by allowing it to catch up to or pass them before skating forwards.  The skater may chose to speed up their yield by skating clockwise to rejoin the back of the pack, but is not required to skate clockwise to complete the yield.  Failing to yield to the pack will result in a false start major penalty.  Officially.  There is no other penalty applied because they are either patiently waiting for the pack to catch and pass them (also satisfying the requirements for returning to play), or they have skated forward and received a major false start and should be signaled to the box.[/rule]
...It is not possible to form a pack across the Jammer Line at the start of a jam.  Blockers who begin ahead of the Jammer Line are at the very back of the field of play, and Blockers who begin just behind the Jammer Line are at the very forward most edge of the field of play.  A pack cannot reform when the Blockers are not in proximity, and at the start of the jam Blockers who are on opposite sides of the Jammer Line are, by the instructions provided in Rules Comm's clarification above, not in proximity.

Don't like the spiral staircase description?  Find something else that makes more sense to you, like a glass wall, or a disruption in space/time that makes the actual width of the Jammer Line a million miles, or a teleportation beam that sucks skaters from one track to another as they cross the Jammer Line thereby completing each lap of the track.
The Gorram Reaver
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Offline FNZebra

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Re: Team behind jammer line
« Reply #42 on: June 08, 2011, 12:34:37 am »
so just to add to the head explosions, what is the story if the other team rushes back behind the jammer line before the whistle too? just false start minors for all, jammers released immediately, carry on?

Yes, if all of the other team manages to scramble behind the jammer line, then it's a False Start minor party, and every one who isn't a Jammer gets one. Jammers are released immediately, and there's an interesting sprint to hit the rear of the pack that is now everyone yielding to everyone else in the pack, so as to not get an upgraded Major.

Did you manage to follow all that? Good, because I've got bad news for you.

Things get uglier if not all of the second team makes it back there, because then there is a pack immediately at the first whistle now, it is far far far across the Pivot line, the Jammers are immediately released, and now you have to issue OOP warnings to the rest of the team (Blockers/Pivot) that didn't get False Start minors for being across the Jammer line. They will probably look very confused, and either start sprinting in the proper direction, or else much more likely, stay put and thus earn minors for entering the pack from the wrong direction, per:

[rule]6.10.15 A Blocker re-entering the pack from the front, having fallen behind the pack. A penalty must be applied to each offending Blocker (see Section 4.3.3 and Sections 8.3 and 8.4). [/rule]

So again, you are likely to be issuing penalties to most skaters on the track.

This thing I like to refer to as The Worst Play in Derby looks really really weird the first time you see it, and it will tax your entire officials crew trying to keep up with catching and calling all of the penalties and getting them recorded. However, with the knowledge in this thread (track is a spiral; pack can't form across the Jammer line, as it is the beginning of the entire spiral) and the existing rules, you'll do fine. Just make certain to prep for this one in your pre-bout officials' meeting, so everyone knows what they should be doing if it happens.
You will bout as you practice.


Cheers,

FN Zebra
Bleeding Heartland Roller Derby (WFTDA)
Bloomington, Indianer

Offline FNZebra

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Re: Team behind jammer line
« Reply #43 on: June 08, 2011, 12:43:38 am »
Also, presuming you are doing a 2-4 rotation half-lap skate & wait on the outside...

The OPR at turn 4 should pinch in to be looking at the Jammer line, directly opposite the Jam Ref, to help call penalties if this breaks outs. They are also useful there when the Blockers suddenly rush back to get in front of the Jammers at the five second warning -- you'll be able to call minors for being (accidently) over the line, and such.
« Last Edit: June 08, 2011, 01:38:35 am by FNZebra »
You will bout as you practice.


Cheers,

FN Zebra
Bleeding Heartland Roller Derby (WFTDA)
Bloomington, Indianer

Offline Cliquework

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Re: Team behind jammer line
« Reply #44 on: June 08, 2011, 03:29:47 am »
Things get uglier if not all of the second team makes it back there, because then there is a pack immediately at the first whistle now, it is far far far across the Pivot line, the Jammers are immediately released, and now you have to issue OOP warnings to the rest of the team (Blockers/Pivot) that didn't get False Start minors for being across the Jammer line. They will probably look very confused, and either start sprinting in the proper direction, or else much more likely, stay put and thus earn minors for entering the pack from the wrong direction, per:

[rule]6.10.15 A Blocker re-entering the pack from the front, having fallen behind the pack. A penalty must be applied to each offending Blocker (see Section 4.3.3 and Sections 8.3 and 8.4). [/rule]

It was discussed at Spring Roll (you were there!) that this would not be applicable and rejoining from either direction is acceptable. The blockers are not leaving from the opposite direction in which they left. They never left the pack. Granted, a ruling from THR isn't WFTDA Rules Comm, but it certainly is to the letter of the rule and falls in line with "taking a knee prior to jam start isn't pack destruction, as a pack never existed to begin with".
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