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Author Topic: Team behind jammer line  (Read 31506 times)

Offline Grim Griefer

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Re: Team behind jammer line
« Reply #75 on: July 06, 2011, 04:15:32 am »

I can get behind that, especially with some historical context. While I don't explicitly disagree with the interpretation, I think that the rule may perhaps be better interpreted to reduce the advantage provided by the illegal action rather than possibly amplify it. As this leans into strategy, I will go no further in this forum.

To answer Mick's original questions:

1. Yes, once they have yielded, may move forward. Is the pack.
2. Yes, OOP waaayy behind.
3. No, pack is already waaayy across the Pivot line, remember? Start the Jammers immediately, Red in front may not engage them! {also see reference to Prof Murder saying they broke roller derby}
4. Yes, Red in front would earn minors for re-entering the pack from the wrong direction. They have fallen behind by the pack starting waaayy across the Pivot line. I will agree to disagree with Slippery Cliquewerk yet again in a discussion regarding variations on the Worst Play in Derby. ;)

Under the choice of the selected emphasis, I'd agree with this shakeout.

Offline Cliquework

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Re: Team behind jammer line
« Reply #76 on: July 06, 2011, 02:07:09 pm »
4. I'm not sure where I've disagreed here. I do remember posting what was called at a tournament when this was still new, but to stick with the clarification I agree that OOP blockers must skate forward. Pack (false starting blockers) must yield. My reference to 6.10.15 not applying was because OOP blockers behind must skate forward to rejoin the pack who is in front of them. Skating backwards would be failing to rejoin. Additionally, the pack could not skate forward without penalty.

Perhaps I should have said "wouldn't get much of a chance to apply".

To MIck's question of what constitutes yielding - The OOP blockers will (must) skate to rejoin the pack. The pack must yield. The OOP blockers have the right to be allowed to the front (take advantage of the yield). If that's what they choose, the yield is not complete until they get there. If, once the OOP blockers reach the pack, they decide to remain in the rear, they are not taking advantage of the yield and the pack can again move. Until then they must remain stationary.
« Last Edit: July 06, 2011, 03:08:02 pm by Cliquework »
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Offline mick hawkins

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Re: Team behind jammer line
« Reply #77 on: July 07, 2011, 01:40:26 am »

To MIck's question of what constitutes yielding - The OOP blockers will (must) skate to rejoin the pack. The pack must yield. The OOP blockers have the right to be allowed to the front (take advantage of the yield). If that's what they choose, the yield is not complete until they get there. If, once the OOP blockers reach the pack, they decide to remain in the rear, they are not taking advantage of the yield and the pack can again move. Until then they must remain stationary.

Thanks... That what I figured. Good to have it spelled out clearly.
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Offline FNZebra

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Re: Team behind jammer line
« Reply #78 on: July 07, 2011, 01:50:16 am »
To MIck's question of what constitutes yielding - The OOP blockers will (must) skate to rejoin the pack. The pack must yield. The OOP blockers have the right to be allowed to the front (take advantage of the yield). If that's what they choose, the yield is not complete until they get there. If, once the OOP blockers reach the pack, they decide to remain in the rear, they are not taking advantage of the yield and the pack can again move. Until then they must remain stationary.

Just some teasing on the disagreeing on this round, Clique. ;)

And to be more precise, the yielding skaters must remain stationary or, at their discretion, may choose to skate in the anti-derby direction. Any forward motion should be considered not yielding, and should earn an IP major for the false start.
You will bout as you practice.


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Offline Major Puddles

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Re: Team behind jammer line
« Reply #79 on: July 07, 2011, 03:48:58 am »
I think I've followed this, but I was just hoping someone could provide clarification on when the Jammer whistle would go?

I understand the pack has false started and must yield.
I understand the remaining blockers are OOP and must skate forward to catch up to the pack.
I understand the pack can't do a damn thing before they get there, except for skating backwards, without getting penalised.

But are they considered to have "crossed" the pivot line? I know they are ruled to be in front of it, and for the point of releasing the jammers, is that the same thing? Otherwise, technically, wouldn't they be lapping the jammers if the pack has to continue forward once they have yielded to physically cross the line?

My brain hurts. I'm sorry if I sound dumb, but this makes my head swim.

Offline mick hawkins

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Re: Team behind jammer line
« Reply #80 on: July 07, 2011, 04:22:57 am »
I think I've followed this, but I was just hoping someone could provide clarification on when the Jammer whistle would go?
hey man,

Similar to a no pack start. Just wait a beat.

tweeeeet... <pause>... tweet tweet

Quote
But are they considered to have "crossed" the pivot line? I know they are ruled to be in front of it, and for the point of releasing the jammers, is that the same thing? Otherwise, technically, wouldn't they be lapping the jammers if the pack has to continue forward once they have yielded to physically cross the line?
Based on answers to the questions I asked here (and elsewhere) my take is that they haven't actually "crossed" the line, but since they are so far ahead there's no need to.
I'm rationalising this by thinking of the spiral jam idea... and that requiring them to cross the line is like going back in time.
Releasing the jammers (while not allowing the pack to move forward) gets everyone to the same place on the spiral.

I love the spiral   ;D
« Last Edit: July 07, 2011, 04:40:32 am by mick hawkins »
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Offline Black Adder

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Re: Team behind jammer line
« Reply #81 on: July 07, 2011, 05:32:59 am »
Quote
Blue team lines up behind the jammer line.
One red blocker joins the blue team behind the jammer line.
Rest of the Red team are between the pivot/jammer lines.

Jam starts.

if the Red blocker behind the jammer line skates CW towards her team mates and the Blue blockers stood still would the Red blocker receive a 'destroying the Pack' major?

(I first put this up as 'skates CCW' by accident, but that's also a question worth answering)
« Last Edit: July 07, 2011, 05:37:18 am by Black Adder »

Offline the Enforcer

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Re: Team behind jammer line
« Reply #82 on: July 07, 2011, 07:35:40 am »
Quote
Blue team lines up behind the jammer line.
One red blocker joins the blue team behind the jammer line.
Rest of the Red team are between the pivot/jammer lines.

Jam starts.

if the Red blocker behind the jammer line skates CW towards her team mates and the Blue blockers stood still would the Red blocker receive a 'destroying the Pack' major?

(I first put this up as 'skates CCW' by accident, but that's also a question worth answering)

if the blocker goes beyond 10 feet it would be destroying the pack. That blocker has no reason to rejoin their team-mates as the team-mates are the ones OOP.

to the red blocker skating CW...
[rule]6.10.20
Illegally destroying the Pack: The act of illegally destroying the pack causes all Blockers to lose relative position. The skater responsible for destroying the pack receives a major penalty.[/rule]

for the rest of her team...
[rule]6.10.1
A skater who is more than twenty (20) feet in front of or behind the pack may receive an out of play warning by a referee; however, a referee is not required to issue a warning prior to giving a penalty. Issuing penalties takes priority over issuing warnings. A warning does not have to be issued in order for a penalty to be given (see Section 9.3.1.1).[/rule]

Some may think the following would apply....
[rule]6.10.2.1.2
At the start of a jam if one team skates forward and the opposing team remains stationary, upon a No Pack scenario the Jammer start whistle will blow and no penalties for illegally destroying the pack shall be enforced. Skaters and teams are still responsible for immediately reforming a pack (see Sections 6.10.7, 6.10.12, and 6.10.20).[/rule]

however notice the first line where it says skating forward. Since the lone red blocker has skated CW, not forward/normal game play direction, causing her to destroy the pack, a penalty should be issued. The Jam start whistle should have already been blown since the relative position of the pack is already in front of the pivot line.

If I'm wrong please correct me.
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Offline James Harper

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Re: Team behind jammer line
« Reply #83 on: July 07, 2011, 12:36:33 pm »
ok, this maybe answered elsewhere so excuse the redundancy.

So, if the team that leaves the pivot line, while the other team waits patiently behind the jammer line, skates CCW to rejoin then decides to stop or skate CW... have they not taken advantage of the yield?

This falls into failure to reform pack right? If one team starts to skate CCW and the other team continues CW, both receive majors for failure to reform?

The the team that enters the pack incorrectly (from the front or back) should also receive minors for OOP?
These are merely my interpretations and opinions. I am here to gain and share knowledge.

If I am mistaken or calling incorrectly I am happy to be educated.

Offline FNZebra

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Re: Team behind jammer line
« Reply #84 on: July 07, 2011, 01:47:36 pm »
ok, this maybe answered elsewhere so excuse the redundancy.

So, if the team that leaves the pivot line, while the other team waits patiently behind the jammer line, skates CCW to rejoin then decides to stop or skate CW... have they not taken advantage of the yield?

Yes, the need to yield advantage would have been satisfied if the other skaters have the opportunity and decide not to take it. So here, the false-starting pack must wait, and if the others skaters skate CCW and then stop or turn around, the pack may then skate CCW.


This falls into failure to reform pack right? If one team starts to skate CCW and the other team continues CW, both receive majors for failure to reform?

No. Remember that we already have a pack in this case. Failure to reform applies after a no pack situation.

Go back to the beginning of this long thread for what happens if only one team lines up behind the Jammer line.

The the team that enters the pack incorrectly (from the front or back) should also receive minors for OOP?

There is not full consensus on this yet, but that's how I would call it.
You will bout as you practice.


Cheers,

FN Zebra
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Offline The Gorram Reaver

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Re: Team behind jammer line
« Reply #85 on: July 07, 2011, 04:42:22 pm »
No. Remember that we already have a pack in this case. Failure to reform applies after a no pack situation.

Failure to Reform Return penalties will still apply to the skaters who are out of play.  If they begin moving toward the pack (skating counterclockwise) and then stop moving toward the pack (either by coming to a complete stop or by skating clockwise), they are still subject for penalty for failure to reform return.  
[rule]6.10.6  Out of Play skaters will be warned to re-enter the Engagement Zone and will be penalized if they do not immediately attempt to return to Engagement Zone.[/rule]
However, in ceasing their attempt to reform return to the Engagement Zone they have removed the burden of the false starting skaters to yield because they have failed to take advantage of that yield.  Once all non-false starting Blockers have either failed to take advantage of the yield or have overtaken all false-starting skaters, the false starting skaters are free to proceed without concern that their false start penalties will be escalated from a minor to a major.
[rule]6.13.16  A false start by a Jammer or Blocker who does not yield advantage. The Jammer or Blocker who committed the false start must stop all forward motion until the opposing Jammer or Blocker(s) takes the lead by passing her. If a false-starting Blocker or Jammer yields her advantage but the opposing Jammer or Blocker(s) does not take advantage of her attempt to yield position, an additional penalty must not be assessed and the yielding skater may proceed.[/rule]
« Last Edit: July 07, 2011, 05:09:13 pm by The Gorram Reaver »
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Offline Cliquework

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Re: Team behind jammer line
« Reply #86 on: July 07, 2011, 05:03:50 pm »
FNZeeb is corrcet on the "reform".

Failure to "return", as opposed to reform. Evidenced in the verbal cues doc:

[rule]“Failure to Re-Enter” (6.10.11, 6.10.17)
“Failure to Reform” (6.10.12, 6.10.18)[/rule]

I also do not believe the burden will be removed until they have returned or until they are all subsequently sent off and do not exist for failure to return. Unless they are sent off they are compelled to skate forward and return. Once returned we can see at that point whether or not they take full advantage of the yield or remain in the rear of the pack.
« Last Edit: July 07, 2011, 05:08:04 pm by Cliquework »
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Offline The Gorram Reaver

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Re: Team behind jammer line
« Reply #87 on: July 07, 2011, 05:05:52 pm »

Why yes!  Thank you!  They aren't failing to reform, because the pack is there, they are indeed failing to return.  duhrrrrr.....  (where's my coffee?)  (Previous post edited to reflect the appropriate terms.)
« Last Edit: July 07, 2011, 05:10:21 pm by The Gorram Reaver »
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