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Author Topic: Team behind jammer line  (Read 31502 times)

Offline Tom Schaefges

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Team behind jammer line
« on: June 06, 2011, 02:51:16 am »
At a bout last night we had a jam in which all four blockers of the Blue team lined up behind the jammer line with their jammer. The Purple team, whose jammer was in the box, lined up at the Pivot line.

At the five second warning the Purple team, seeing the Blue team behind the jammer line, moved back and lined up right in front of the jammer line. I'd like to go step-by-step through what happened to check my understanding of the applicable rules. I'd appreciate guidance on how this situation should be called.

1. After the pack start whistle "No Pack" was called because even though the Purple and Blue blockers were standing just a few feet from each other, the Blue blockers behind the jammer line are considered way ahead of the Purple blockers.

2. Each one of the Blue blockers was given a false start minor.

Am I correct that at this point the Blue blockers must either remain stationary or skate clockwise and the Purple blockers must skate counter clockwise to reform the pack?

3. The Purple blockers start skating forward (CCW), but just as they reach the Pivot line they all reverse direction and return to the Jammer line. This should get one Purple blocker a Failure to Reform minor based on

[rule]
6.10.12  No pack: After a warning, a failure to immediately attempt  to reform a pack will result in a minor penalty. This penalty includes failure to reform a pack by returning to in bounds from out of bounds. One penalty will be applied to a single skater per team, if applicable, who seems most responsible or the Pivot (see Sections7.1.2 and 7.2.4).
[/rule]

Right?

4. On calling the Failure to Reform the Purple blockers start skating forward (CCW) again. They get to the Pivot line, stop, and kind of mill around not knowing what to do. Is this a sustained Failure to Reform? Does a Purple blocker get a major based on

[rule]
6.10.18 No pack: After a warning, a sustained failure to reform a pack will result in a major penalty. This penalty includes a sustained failure to reform a pack by returning to in bounds from out of bounds. One penalty will be applied to a single skater per team, if applicable, who seems most responsible or the Pivot (see Sections7.1.2 and 7.2.4).
[/rule]

5. A couple Purple blockers start skating backwards. Sustained Failure to Reform?

6. At this point some of the Blue blockers begin to skate forward (CCW). But since we have a No Pack situation, by moving forward the Blue blockers are now subject to Failure to Reform penalties, right? (I was told by the Blue captain later that they thought they could start skating because the Purple team had not taken advantage of their yield.)

It seems straightforward if both teams know what to do, but one of them doesn't, what a mess. I know we'll be seeing this type of start again. It nearly happened a second time in that bout except that one of the Blue blockers stood in front of the Jammer line. The three who were behind the jammer line got False Start penalties.

A side question: Can a blocker who is behind the jammer line at the jam start whistle legally skate forward before the pack, skating counter clockwise, reaches her? If she's considered to be in front of the Pivot line, is skating forward, in any circumstance, a Failure to Re-Enter penalty? If she joins the pack, is that an Illegal Return (6.10.14) even though she never left the pack in the first place?


Offline mick hawkins

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Re: Team behind jammer line
« Reply #1 on: June 06, 2011, 03:05:41 am »
Am I correct that at this point the Blue blockers must either remain stationary or skate clockwise and the Purple blockers must skate counter clockwise to reform the pack?
yes...

I have an Official WFTDA Rules Committee answer for your question :

[rule]A blocker who is on the track in front of the pivot line, but behind the jammer line has false started and must yield to the pack by allowing it to catch up to or pass them before skating forwards.  The skater may chose to speed up their yield by skating clockwise to rejoin the back of the pack, but is not required to skate clockwise to complete the yield.  Failing to yield to the pack will result in a false start major penalty.  Officially.  There is no other penalty applied because they are either patiently waiting for the pack to catch and pass them (also satisfying the requirements for returning to play), or they have skated forward and received a major false start and should be signaled to the box.[/rule]


A side question: Can a blocker who is behind the jammer line at the jam start whistle legally skate forward before the pack, skating counter clockwise, reaches her? If she's considered to be in front of the Pivot line, is skating forward, in any circumstance, a Failure to Re-Enter penalty? If she joins the pack, is that an Illegal Return (6.10.14) even though she never left the pack in the first place?
Not legally... per the answer above
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Offline Black Adder

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Re: Team behind jammer line
« Reply #2 on: June 06, 2011, 03:55:30 am »
Must say that the question of can the skaters behind the jammer line skate forward if the other team has failed to take adjantage of their yeild is an interesting one....

Although it'd make a horrible mess of pack definition...


How long does it take until you consider a skater 'not taking advantage'  in a normal false start scenario???

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Re: Team behind jammer line
« Reply #3 on: June 06, 2011, 03:58:58 am »
Must say that the question of can the skaters behind the jammer line skate forward if the other team has failed to take adjantage of their yeild is an interesting one....

Although it'd make a horrible mess of pack definition...


How long does it take until you consider a skater 'not taking advantage'  in a normal false start scenario???

If the other team failed to take advantage of the yield, they'd be awarded failure to reform penalties... minor then major, then more majors.
I dare say it wouldn't take long at all for them to reform a pack - taking advantage of the yield.
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Offline Black Adder

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Re: Team behind jammer line
« Reply #4 on: June 06, 2011, 04:56:25 am »

If the other team failed to take advantage of the yield, they'd be awarded failure to reform penalties... minor then major, then more majors.
I dare say it wouldn't take long at all for them to reform a pack - taking advantage of the yield.

True That !

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Re: Team behind jammer line
« Reply #5 on: June 06, 2011, 07:21:35 am »
If I am reading this right, regardless of what the purple team do the blue team would need to remain stationary or risk a failure to reform minor or major?

What I am also curious about is the following, since the no pack situation was called while the skaters where standing still even going clockwise at a slow pace could meet the definition of "speeding up to re-enter the engagement zone". This could result in a sustained no pack situation.

Mind you, I can not see a huge advantage to doing this but as far as I can tell it does conform to the rules.


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Re: Team behind jammer line
« Reply #6 on: June 06, 2011, 07:28:30 am »
If I am reading this right, regardless of what the purple team do the blue team would need to remain stationary or risk a failure to reform minor or major?
Not quite. If the blue team move forward they (each) get a false start IP major (in addition to upgrading the minor already awarded)

Quote
What I am also curious about is the following, since the no pack situation was called while the skaters where standing still even going clockwise at a slow pace could meet the definition of "speeding up to re-enter the engagement zone". This could result in a sustained no pack situation
There's no pack, so there's no EZ.
The blue team can stand still or, if they choose, skate clockwise to reform a pack - keeping in mind that if ahead, skaters can stand still to reform a pack. There's no requirement to skate clockwise.
The purple team must skate anti-clockwise to form a pack.
« Last Edit: June 07, 2011, 11:56:31 pm by mick hawkins »
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Offline Entropy

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Re: Team behind jammer line
« Reply #7 on: June 06, 2011, 08:11:53 am »
Not quite. If the blue team move forward they (each) get a false start IP major (in addition to the minor already awarded)

Sorry I should have been more specific, if the blue team move forward they get a minor, if they continue their CCW skating they get a major for failing to reform.

Quote
There's no pack, so there's no EZ.
The blue team can stand still or, if they choose, skate clockwise to reform a pack - keeping in mind that if ahead, skaters can stand still to reform a pack. There's no requirement to skate clockwise.
The purple team must skate anti-clockwise to form a pack.

Sorry my screw up here, I meant to, say that the purple team could to skate slowly in a CCW direction and still meet the requirements of attempting to reform the pack, however it would cause the no pack situation to be sustained for quite a while.

I should have proof read that statement before I posted, sorry.

Offline mick hawkins

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Re: Team behind jammer line
« Reply #8 on: June 06, 2011, 08:20:38 am »
Not quite. If the blue team move forward they (each) get a false start IP major (in addition to the minor already awarded)

Sorry I should have been more specific, if the blue team move forward they get a minor, if they continue their CCW skating they get a major for failing to reform.

It's an IP major for false starting - not for failure to reform.

The penalty is explained in the post above...
I have an Official WFTDA Rules Committee answer for your question :

[rule]A blocker who is on the track in front of the pivot line, but behind the jammer line has false started and must yield to the pack by allowing it to catch up to or pass them before skating forwards.  The skater may chose to speed up their yield by skating clockwise to rejoin the back of the pack, but is not required to skate clockwise to complete the yield.  Failing to yield to the pack will result in a false start major penalty.  Officially.  There is no other penalty applied because they are either patiently waiting for the pack to catch and pass them (also satisfying the requirements for returning to play), or they have skated forward and received a major false start and should be signaled to the box.[/rule]

Quote
There's no pack, so there's no EZ.
The blue team can stand still or, if they choose, skate clockwise to reform a pack - keeping in mind that if ahead, skaters can stand still to reform a pack. There's no requirement to skate clockwise.
The purple team must skate anti-clockwise to form a pack.

Sorry my screw up here, I meant to, say that the purple team could to skate slowly in a CCW direction and still meet the requirements of attempting to reform the pack, however it would cause the no pack situation to be sustained for quite a while.

I should have proof read that statement before I posted, sorry.

I would not consider skating slowly to be immediately attempting to reform a pack.

While I dont want to get into the strategy too much, it would be in the Purple team's interest to stay ahead of the jammer and reform a pack quickly.
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Offline Darkjester

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Re: Team behind jammer line
« Reply #9 on: June 06, 2011, 05:38:16 pm »
I'm still not 100% sure I agree with "No Pack" even though they are standing a few feet apart.

Consider it as an alternative if the false starting blockers were 1ft ahead of the pivot line at the beginning of the jam. Yes, they still get a False start minor, but there is also a pack.


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Offline Tom Schaefges

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Re: Team behind jammer line
« Reply #10 on: June 06, 2011, 06:19:33 pm »
When there's one blocker behind the jammer line the other blockers from the team are between the pivot and jammer lines forming a pack with the opposition.

A person behind the jammer line is way ahead of the pivot line. It follows that if an entire team is behind the jammer line they are way ahead of the "other side" of the line. That's more than 10 feet, hence no pack even though the players from opposing teams may be just a few feet apart.

Offline FNZebra

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Re: Team behind jammer line
« Reply #11 on: June 06, 2011, 07:10:58 pm »
I'm still not 100% sure I agree with "No Pack" even though they are standing a few feet apart.

Consider it as an alternative if the false starting blockers were 1ft ahead of the pivot line at the beginning of the jam. Yes, they still get a False start minor, but there is also a pack.

This scenario has come up in these parts before, about a month ago, when The Worst Play in Derby first reared its head.

Here are some relevant quotes for how to look at the situation, to allow what you already know about the rules to guide your calling:

I have an Official WFTDA Rules Committee answer for your question :

[rule]A blocker who is on the track in front of the pivot line, but behind the jammer line has false started and must yield to the pack by allowing it to catch up to or pass them before skating forwards.  The skater may chose to speed up their yield by skating clockwise to rejoin the back of the pack, but is not required to skate clockwise to complete the yield.  Failing to yield to the pack will result in a false start major penalty.  Officially.  There is no other penalty applied because they are either patiently waiting for the pack to catch and pass them (also satisfying the requirements for returning to play), or they have skated forward and received a major false start and should be signaled to the box.[/rule]

and

The clarifications/statements from Rules seems to indicate that even if Blockers lined up in front of the Jammer Line are within 10' of Blockers behind the Jammer Line, they are in fact not 10' in front of the false starting Blockers but really more like 100' behind them.  So the only way to form/reform a pack is for the skaters who did not false start to skate counter clockwise, and for the skaters who did false start to remain stationary or skate clockwise (if they so choose) until the non-false starting Blockers have overtaken the false starting Blockers, thus completing the process of the false starting Blockers yielding to those who started legally.

Yeah, it breaks the head a little.  But some times we have to stop thinking of the track as a continuous loop & assign it finite starting/ending points.

Reaver, myself, and many other WFTDA folks think of the track as being an ever-increasing spiral as the jam goes on. This has implications for false starting skaters and for forming (and reforming) the pack:

1) Per the clarification, skaters behind the Jammer line are actually very far ahead of the Pivot line. They are almost one full level up the spiral.
2) The pack cannot be formed across the Jammer line at the beginning of the jam, because of this spiral. You may think of the Jammer line as an invisible wall at the very start of the jam.

Also, remember to warn your NSO crew that they might see something like this, and the pack refs might call a false start on an entire team at once, rather than individually -- it'll help everyone keep focused on the rest of the start of jam shenanigans if this actually happens, and less time confirming that "Yes, I really meant false start on ALL of the Green Blockers". Please cover this in your officials pre-bout meeting.
You will bout as you practice.


Cheers,

FN Zebra
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Offline Tom Schaefges

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Re: Team behind jammer line
« Reply #12 on: June 06, 2011, 07:13:57 pm »
Also, remember to warn your NSO crew that they might see something like this, and the pack refs might call a false start on an entire team at once, rather than individually -- it'll help everyone keep focused on the rest of the start of jam shenanigans if this actually happens, and less time confirming that "Yes, I really meant false start on ALL of the Green Blockers". Please cover this in your officials pre-bout meeting.

I'm glad you mentioned this. Is there any standard way to call a penalty on an entire team at once? "Blue 10, 20, 30, and 40 False Start" ?

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Re: Team behind jammer line
« Reply #13 on: June 06, 2011, 07:31:24 pm »
Also, remember to warn your NSO crew that they might see something like this, and the pack refs might call a false start on an entire team at once, rather than individually -- it'll help everyone keep focused on the rest of the start of jam shenanigans if this actually happens, and less time confirming that "Yes, I really meant false start on ALL of the Green Blockers". Please cover this in your officials pre-bout meeting.

I'm glad you mentioned this. Is there any standard way to call a penalty on an entire team at once? "Blue 10, 20, 30, and 40 False Start" ?

There is no official standard vocal cue. That's why it's important to cover it at the pre-bout meeting. And you may not have enough time to focus on other penalties if you are actually trying to gather all of the false-starting skaters' numbers.

I've heard variations of "All Green Blockers, False start" used in bouts and scrimmages before. The wrangler or tracker should be able to get the numbers in a moment (the really good ones already are on top of which Blockers already had three minors!), and if any of Green should skate forward, you'd be announcing their numbers anyway, as part of the upgraded major. ;-)

In this one particular instance, because those skaters all know they are false starting anyway, speaking as myself (a shitty ref), I think it's OK to break from the Standard Vocal Cues.
You will bout as you practice.


Cheers,

FN Zebra
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Re: Team behind jammer line
« Reply #14 on: June 06, 2011, 08:09:09 pm »

I dare say it wouldn't take long at all for them to reform a pack - taking advantage of the yield.

This is my first post but i want to make sure i have this part correct since this came up this weekend. (Lucky for me Reaver and Whistler where there to get us new refs through the scenario)

My point of clarification is that reforming a pack does not equal yielding advantage. When the first of the back group of blockers is within 10 feet of the group that lined up behind the jammer, a pack is defined, but they still have not yielded their advantage until they are even with, or passed by, the approaching blockers. If they start to move forward when the pack is defined, they are still subject to major false start penalties since they did not yield advantage per the WFDTA Rules committee statement.

Is this correct?

 

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