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Author Topic: Too many players on the track, fourth minor - now what?  (Read 11015 times)

Offline noidd

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Too many players on the track, fourth minor - now what?
« on: March 05, 2009, 10:01:48 pm »

So, Jam starts as "Normal" until just before the jammer whistle when one of the pack-refs notices that there is one too many players on the track so he waves one off with an Illegal Procedure Minor.

Penalty tracker then informs him that that was that blockers fourth minor, so - the ref directs the removed skater to go to the penalty box.

We now have the interesting situation where we have a player in the box and all five of their team still on the track.  IE, the team is not being penalized.

I have two questions from this point so I'm going to split it into two threads.

Question 1.  Is the scenario as described how it should be called?

Given that a parallell to this scenario is that if a player is ejected from the game, another player must take their position in the box - is this something that may be, ahem "in the spirit of the game" but not in the rules? (yet).

Second question to follow directly below.
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Offline Jessticular Fortitude

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Re: Too many players on the track, fourth minor - now what?
« Reply #1 on: March 05, 2009, 10:11:28 pm »
Is the IP minor supposed to go to the skater who was pulled, or the Captain or Pivot?
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Offline Ref Neck

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Re: Too many players on the track, fourth minor - now what?
« Reply #2 on: March 05, 2009, 10:22:04 pm »
The "extra" blocker should be pulled from the track and directed to the bench. Which one to pull is at the discretion of the referee, I always just go with the non-pivot blocker that is closest to me. The IP minor should go to the Pivot/Captain is it is not possible to determine which of skaters is the extra blocker on the track. If it is the Pivot/Captain's fourth minor, the Pivot/Captain should be directed to the penalty box to serve the time. It is the refs duty to ensure the right number of skaters are on the track at all times, by not sending someone to the bench before you send a different person to the box, you have not upheld that responsibility.

8.2.1.1 The referees are responsible for determining that both teams have the correct number of skaters in the jam, taking into account skaters in the penalty box. (see Section 2.4.4 for details on starting with too few skaters)
8.2.1.1.1 If the jam starts with too many skaters, the ref should try to pull the last skater who entered the floor; if that skater cannot be identified, the skater that is closest to them can be pulled off of the floor. The team should be penalized according to Section 6.2.8.
8.2.1.1.2 If the jam starts with too many skaters and the extra skater cannot be pulled, the ref should stop the jam. The team should be penalized according to Section 6.2.8.
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Re: Too many players on the track, fourth minor - now what?
« Reply #3 on: March 05, 2009, 10:47:11 pm »
An extremely pedantic reading of 8.2.1.1.1 means that if the team started a jam with even more than six players, only one could be removed ("... the last skater...").

However then you would need to stop the jam under 8.2.1.1.2 ("...starts with too many skaters and the extra skater cannot be pulled...").

Just use some discretion and pull as many skaters as you need to to bring the total of track + box to five.

Offline Rev. Riot

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Re: Too many players on the track, fourth minor - now what?
« Reply #4 on: March 06, 2009, 12:50:35 am »
That's why I ALWAYS give the penalty to the Pivot (so long as there is one, there usually is, even if she's in the box). Then there's always someone that can serve the penalty if it's the fourth for her. Because maybe the captain isn't in that jam, but the Pivot almost always is. For me, in any instance, it's the person responsible, if that can't be determined, it's the Pivot, if it's a rare example of no Pivot, it's the Captain.
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Offline Jessticular Fortitude

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Re: Too many players on the track, fourth minor - now what?
« Reply #5 on: March 06, 2009, 01:02:55 am »
OK, so if you CAN tell who the last skater was to enter the track, and she has 3 minors, do you give the IP penalty to her or the Pivot? And if you give it to her and she has to go to the box, what do you do then? That's the original question anyway. Call off the jam like Great Barrier Ref mentioned?
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Offline L8R SK8R

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Re: Too many players on the track, fourth minor - now what?
« Reply #6 on: March 06, 2009, 12:30:58 pm »
An extremely pedantic reading of 8.2.1.1.1 means that if the team started a jam with even more than six players, only one could be removed ("... the last skater...").

You want pedantic, what if the last skater that entered the floor was the jammer?

Offline Riff Reff

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Re: Too many players on the track, fourth minor - now what?
« Reply #7 on: March 06, 2009, 01:20:42 pm »
Quote
You want pedantic, what if the last skater that entered the floor was the jammer?

You have to, in the case that a team fields two jammers.

I think that is why 8.2.1 has "skaters" in it. So it covers both situations. the rest is logic: You cannot pull the Jammer and leave 5 blockers on the track.. And if a team fields 10 skaters - just repeat 8.2.1.1.1 (last skater, who...) until it's right.
« Last Edit: March 06, 2009, 01:22:50 pm by Riff Reff »
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Offline Ref Neck

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Re: Too many players on the track, fourth minor - now what?
« Reply #8 on: March 06, 2009, 01:48:29 pm »
An extremely pedantic reading of 8.2.1.1.1 means that if the team started a jam with even more than six players, only one could be removed ("... the last skater...").

You want pedantic, what if the last skater that entered the floor was the jammer?

No.


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Offline Izzy Wright

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Re: Too many players on the track, fourth minor - now what?
« Reply #9 on: March 06, 2009, 08:23:15 pm »
OK, so if you CAN tell who the last skater was to enter the track, and she has 3 minors, do you give the IP penalty to her or the Pivot? And if you give it to her and she has to go to the box, what do you do then? That's the original question anyway. Call off the jam like Great Barrier Ref mentioned?


Ref Neck nailed it I believe. You are pulling the last skater to enter (if known, if not yank someone) and sending her back to the team bench but you are penalizing the team and that IP goes to a skater still on the track (the pivot or captain, if possible). So the original question shouldn't happen: the ref should direct the pulled player to her bench and dish out the team IP to a player still in the jam and on the track.

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Offline Jessticular Fortitude

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Re: Too many players on the track, fourth minor - now what?
« Reply #10 on: March 06, 2009, 08:31:27 pm »
Ohhhh that makes sense, thank you!
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Offline Jessticular Fortitude

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Re: Too many players on the track, fourth minor - now what?
« Reply #11 on: March 06, 2009, 10:38:33 pm »
This will probably sound pretty stupid but please bear with me- I've seen it happen at practice

So I know Nashville has more than one Pivot helmet cover, and sometimes the skaters forget to take off the extra cover between jams. What if we see there is an extra skater on the track, and 2 of them have Pivot covers on? Do we just do eeny-meeny-miny-mo and pick one to get the penalty? Or would it go to the Captain in this case?
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Great Barrier Ref

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Re: Too many players on the track, fourth minor - now what?
« Reply #12 on: March 06, 2009, 11:05:21 pm »
What if we see there is an extra skater on the track, and 2 of them have Pivot covers on? Do we just do eeny-meeny-miny-mo and pick one to get the penalty? Or would it go to the Captain in this case?

Last Pivot to enter, or else Captain.

What do you do if there are the correct number of skaters on the track, but 2 of them have Pivot covers on?

Offline Miss Trie

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Re: Too many players on the track, fourth minor - now what?
« Reply #13 on: March 06, 2009, 11:54:42 pm »
What do you do if there are the correct number of skaters on the track, but 2 of them have Pivot covers on?

Major IP to the last pivot to enter.

6.2.8.9 Improper uniform, jewelry, or skates 


What if you can't identify the last pivot that entered the track?
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Offline SeerSin

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Re: Too many players on the track, fourth minor - now what?
« Reply #14 on: March 07, 2009, 01:34:05 pm »
I think we may be getting to the point with some of these situations where restarting the jam via 6.3.2.3 is warranted. Once the confusion reaches a certain point I think that may be the best option.

What if you can't identify the last pivot that entered the track?

I think grabbing the closest one and sending her off the track would be the best option - if you can't send her off, I'd call the jam and restart it then give the proper IP penalties.

 

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