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Author Topic: How is this usually handled?  (Read 16478 times)

Offline HIM-roid

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Re: How is this usually handled?
« Reply #15 on: July 04, 2011, 06:05:00 pm »
0
Ok, so effectively, you split the difference between the arcs of each skater. I can do that. Though I'm not sure it'll catch on among my non-math-inclined crew members. I envision glazed eyes & nodding heads.

If your non-math inclined crew members don't catch on, then yes, your crew will be calling it wrong. I would highly advise them to attend one of the ref clinics. This and a lot of other misconceptions are either covered or asked in class. I was lucky enough to have a Level 5 and Level 3 at my clinic. There explanations were spot on and dispelled the misconceptions that I got from reading the rule and application. It was definitely worth every penny I spent. Plus, this takes you out of the lime light when the answer is revealed. Some refs out there take offense to being corrected, but those that can accept change are usually the ones who surpass the other refs in their league.
HIM-roid
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Mississippi Rollergirls
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WFTDA Officials Apprentice Program Area Coordinator

Offline Megapickle

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Re: How is this usually handled?
« Reply #16 on: July 04, 2011, 06:48:34 pm »
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I would highly advise them to attend one of the ref clinics.

Thanks, but preaching to the choir. I was stoked when the clinics were announced, but league higher-ups declined our request for funding (~$600/person). Maybe we'll get lucky next year with a clinic within driving distance, in a city where we have friends to stay with.

Offline HIM-roid

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Re: How is this usually handled?
« Reply #17 on: July 04, 2011, 07:42:58 pm »
0
Yes, some leagues don't have the funding to foot the whole bill. I was going to the local clinic for my own sake regardless if my league paid for it or not. Once I told them I was going, they offered to pay for the admission cost. Everything else was on me and as I stated earlier, it was the best money I have ever spent. With ZH as a revenue, maybe you can find someone close to the venue to offer you derby housing to help offset the cost.
HIM-roid
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Mississippi Rollergirls
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Offline Megapickle

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Re: How is this usually handled?
« Reply #18 on: July 04, 2011, 08:15:46 pm »
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With ZH as a revenue,

Is there some money-making opportunity here I don't know about?  ;)

Offline HIM-roid

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Re: How is this usually handled?
« Reply #19 on: July 04, 2011, 08:52:01 pm »
0
no, not money MAKING, but networking and maybe SAVING money. lol
HIM-roid
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Offline Darkjester

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Re: How is this usually handled?
« Reply #20 on: July 05, 2011, 05:58:44 pm »
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I think HIM meant 'avenue'.. With ZH as an Avenue, you could check to see if anyone local to the clinic could put you up or if other refs wanted to share a hotel room :-)


I second HIM's opinion on the value of the Clinics, and I wasn't even able to attend. (Stupid retail being open on Sundays) if I was off that Sunday it would have been worth the 3.5 Hour drive to New Orleans for not only MY league, but the wisdom that could be shared with the FL panhandle.
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Offline Graeme

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Re: How is this usually handled?
« Reply #21 on: July 06, 2011, 11:54:59 am »
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I would highly advise them to attend one of the ref clinics. This and a lot of other misconceptions are either covered or asked in class. I was lucky enough to have a Level 5 and Level 3 at my clinic. There explanations were spot on and dispelled the misconceptions that I got from reading the rule and application. It was definitely worth every penny I spent. Plus, this takes you out of the lime light when the answer is revealed. Some refs out there take offense to being corrected, but those that can accept change are usually the ones who surpass the other refs in their league.

i will be going to the Austrlian clinic, and i'm extremely lucky my league is footing the bill for everything :)
i can't wait, since there is some many things that i think i understand, but am likely to be clarified about.... 

thanks for the link Mick H, i'll be needing to print this and take ot to training tomorrow night to explain this to the other refs at my league...

Offline Wheels Bohr

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Re: How is this usually handled?
« Reply #22 on: July 06, 2011, 04:26:03 pm »
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Apologies in advance if this is pedantic, but I just want to come back to the 10'/20' box one more time. I was also at the wftda clinic HIM-roid attended and it was explained to think of distances as being a 10' or 20' rectangle in front of the skater as has been discussed here before. But I'm not confident that they were explicit about what angle the box should be tilted. I think I understand what Mick showed nicely in his diagram and described: 
It's just rectangles.

Wherever the skaters are, imagine a rectangle where the sides are at their hips.
or...
Imagine their position projected along a rectangle to the boundary (not along the sector lines)
But that means the angle of the in play box around a skater would change depending on where the second skater is positioned?
When it was described at the WFTDA clinic, I thought they meant having one side of the rectangle be the line perpendicular to the inside track going through the skater, so if a skater were on a guideline (sectorline), that would be the beginning of her box of proximity and it would extend forward and backward 10'. This would allow a skater to always have one clearly defined box moving with her, as opposed to having a different box orientation for every skater you compare her position with.
Wheels Bohr
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Offline Megapickle

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Re: How is this usually handled?
« Reply #23 on: July 06, 2011, 04:46:19 pm »
0
Unfortunately, that wouldn't work, because the respective boxes for inside & outside skaters would be dramatically different, and there's no guide for which one takes precedence. Refer back to my example with the two red X players. If you use a box extending forward from the rear outside skater, squared up to her sector line, they're well within proximity, but if you use a box backward from the front inside skater, they're not.

It is true that Mick's rectangle must be positioned at just the right angle, split between the two respective sector lines, which essentially 'averages' the respective arc trajectories of the skaters.

Offline Wheels Bohr

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Re: How is this usually handled?
« Reply #24 on: July 06, 2011, 05:26:20 pm »
0
Ah thanks, I didn't notice that inconsistency before. That does clarify the problem with the "absolute" box. "Relative" box it is then.  ;D
Wheels Bohr
Tallahassee RollerGirls

Offline FNZebra

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Re: How is this usually handled?
« Reply #25 on: July 06, 2011, 06:24:04 pm »
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/ me pages @Cub to this thread

/ me slowly backs out of the thread which has been overrun by math nerds
You will bout as you practice.


Cheers,

FN Zebra
Bleeding Heartland Roller Derby (WFTDA)
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Offline HIM-roid

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Re: How is this usually handled?
« Reply #26 on: July 06, 2011, 08:02:37 pm »
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Mega, if you aren't going to be able to attend one of the clinics, maybe you can find someone locally that did attend and they can share their experience and clarifications with you or maybe even find a certified ref that is in the area and pick their mind. IF you can get the right one to explain "IT" to a way that you can understand, it is like a big ol' light goes off and "poof" it starts making sense. I tried the derby lawyer stance and tore apart sentences and words until I got to the point I was confusing myself and making things way more complicated than they needed to be.
HIM-roid
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WFTDA Officials Apprentice Program Area Coordinator

Offline mick hawkins

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Re: How is this usually handled?
« Reply #27 on: July 07, 2011, 02:23:05 am »
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But that means the angle of the in play box around a skater would change depending on where the second skater is positioned?
When it was described at the WFTDA clinic, I thought they meant having one side of the rectangle be the line perpendicular to the inside track going through the skater, so if a skater were on a guideline (sectorline), that would be the beginning of her box of proximity and it would extend forward and backward 10'. This would allow a skater to always have one clearly defined box moving with her, as opposed to having a different box orientation for every skater you compare her position with.

something like this?...


It's the same method - the rectangle is placed depending on what you're measuring.

The question on the previous page asked "what's the distance between these skaters" - hence the diagram
If you're asking "where's 10' in front of and behind this skater", the method's still the same. the rectangle is just positioned around the skater

And really... when you get right down to it... there's no way Refs can measure these distances accurately during a game.
The skaters are moving around and across the track, the refs are moving too.... and the track corners are two non-concentric circles (!)

This method simply serves to make sure we're all judging distances the same way - and arent looking at distances laterally across the track. (That's the way I look at it anyway).


It is true that Mick's rectangle must be positioned at just the right angle, split between the two respective sector lines, which essentially 'averages' the respective arc trajectories of the skaters.
For what it's worth... I don't think considering the sector lines helps much. Theyre a guide.
Plus you want to be able to judge distances without need to look at the ground for any length of time.

When explaining this to new refs I have them stand in the infield, looking directly across the track.
Imagine your arms stretched out from your sides (even have them put their arms out).
The ref's arms are along the side of the rectangle where the distance is measured - with the Ref being in the centre of the measurement.

(For example, in the above diagram the ref might stand where the 2 arrowheads meet)

Combine this with a few drills on judging 10' and 20' distances and it comes together with practice.

(I like to practice judging distances on a track that doesn't have 10ft marks, or sector lines)
« Last Edit: July 07, 2011, 03:26:16 am by mick hawkins »
Sun State Roller Girls (WFTDA Apprentice League)
Brisbane, Australia

Offline Wheels Bohr

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Re: How is this usually handled?
« Reply #28 on: July 07, 2011, 04:40:44 am »
0
Yes, that's the diagram I had in mind. But the problem with that method is that if you apply the same rule to draw the rectangle around the other blocker (the one in front) then the rear blocker falls outside of her 10' box, which is a contradiction.

I totally agree that the difference between the two methods would not matter on a practical level though since we're asked to just eyeball it. Our league will be getting out our ropes to make sure we're calibrated decently (we also don't practice with the 10' guides).

Thanks, and I love your diagrams Mick!
Wheels Bohr
Tallahassee RollerGirls

Offline mick hawkins

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Re: How is this usually handled?
« Reply #29 on: July 07, 2011, 05:08:04 am »
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Yes, that's the diagram I had in mind. But the problem with that method is that if you apply the same rule to draw the rectangle around the other blocker (the one in front) then the rear blocker falls outside of her 10' box, which is a contradiction.

Indeed!... Which is why i think this method is best used to judge distance between skaters (as opposed to in front of or behind)

that is...



Couldn't resist one more  ;)
« Last Edit: July 07, 2011, 05:10:03 am by mick hawkins »
Sun State Roller Girls (WFTDA Apprentice League)
Brisbane, Australia

 

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