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Author Topic: How is this usually handled?  (Read 19488 times)

Offline PackMan

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Re: How is this usually handled?
« Reply #30 on: July 07, 2011, 03:27:45 pm »
For what it's worth, the league I practice with has recently decided to use hash marks rather than full sector lines.  The reason is two fold.  For one thing the hash mark by neccessity draws your eye into the track when glancing for a reference.  The other thing is that at 3' out from the interior track boundary the sector lines ARE 10' apart, so, by using a hash mark we have a more reliable reference.  That is, since we don't have the parts of the sector that are notably less and more than 10' apart we can effectively use the hash marks as a reminder of what 10' looks like.

Offline ttjustice

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Re: How is this usually handled?
« Reply #31 on: July 07, 2011, 04:40:00 pm »
We also use true 10' marks on the track- its 10' from the center of each 2' long strip of tape.  I got a setup diagram last year and tried it out and we really like it- so much easier to judge.  I actually have incorporated setup points into my track setup ropes for easy layout.  Its actually more than 3' out from the inside track boundary, I think its a little over 5'.

They are somewhat visible here:


Timothy T. Justice
Ohio Roller Girls Head of Officiating 2011-2013
Retired Level 3 Skating Official
WFTDA Rules Theory Clerk

Offline Two Bit Score

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Re: How is this usually handled?
« Reply #32 on: August 18, 2011, 09:35:40 pm »
If the difference in opinion were that blatant or happened again, I'd double-check that everyone is using the right measuring-stick. It's not 10' along the track (as the flawed 10' lines might make you believe), it's 10' in any direction. Two skaters can be about even with each other, but if one is on the inside edge and the other is on the outside edge, they're potentially not in proximity & don't together make a pack.

Pretty sure that's wrong.  See 4.1.1.2 below.  Note that the definition of proximity includes the words "in front of or behind"
[rule]4.1.1.2Proximity is defined as not more than ten feet (as measured from the hips) in front of or behind the nearest pack skater[/rule]

« Last Edit: August 18, 2011, 09:40:14 pm by Two Bit Score »
Any night when I can pull up the covers and say "I am a better ref right now than I was when I woke up," is a good day.
Omnia praesumuntur legitime facta donec probetur in contrarium.

Offline Megapickle

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Re: How is this usually handled?
« Reply #33 on: August 18, 2011, 09:55:58 pm »

On the contrary -- I never had any problems applying my "shortest distance" interpretation before having it shot down in this thread. It may not be what the rule authors intended, but I always found it perfectly simple & logical. Frankly, you posting this rule makes me miss those days. :-)

Offline Anton Deck

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Re: How is this usually handled?
« Reply #34 on: August 18, 2011, 10:59:36 pm »
If the difference in opinion were that blatant or happened again, I'd double-check that everyone is using the right measuring-stick. It's not 10' along the track (as the flawed 10' lines might make you believe), it's 10' in any direction. Two skaters can be about even with each other, but if one is on the inside edge and the other is on the outside edge, they're potentially not in proximity & don't together make a pack.

Pretty sure that's wrong.  See 4.1.1.2 below.  Note that the definition of proximity includes the words "in front of or behind"
[rule]4.1.1.2Proximity is defined as not more than ten feet (as measured from the hips) in front of or behind the nearest pack skater[/rule]



That was my post on facebook in response to roller derby rule of the day putting up a box diagram. Unlike you I think that 4.1.1.2 shows that the any distance/radius theory cannot be a correct interpretation

http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=239902226048641&set=pu.169028706469327&type=1

I just find it really odd that so many people cite 4.1.2.1 but ignore 4.1.1.2 which clearly defines proximity as a distance infront and behind (that being a distance along the track), not accounting for lateral distance. The distance betwen mentioned in 4.1.2.1 is the shortest distance along the track infront or behind ..and that is measured along the inside as per the box.


Its pretty clear from the discussions Ive had with refs/players/coaches and reading through whats on here that theres a lot of confussion on how this is  applied. Im happy to go with any of the 4 intepretations Ive come across, Id just like to know that everyone understood the same one and used it. Id bought this up with quite a fairly senior European ref and what I got back from him sounded far more like the radius explanation than the box one, including and assertion that players who are level on the track with the pack  can be out of the pack bcause of a lateral distance, which i found odd.

Has there been an official clarification on this or is it just something that gets shared at ref clinics?
I had hoped the officiating guide would have something new on the subject but I cant see any clear answer there.

Am I correct in my scan reading of this that the box is the method used by the top level wftda refs? If so it would be nice as a low level wannabe ref to have something official to cite when im telling people far more experienced and knowledgeable than I that they are interpreting the rules differently to how they read to me.

Offline Two Bit Score

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Re: How is this usually handled?
« Reply #35 on: August 18, 2011, 11:07:38 pm »

That was my post on facebook in response to roller derby rule of the day putting up a box diagram.
Yeah, I didn't mean to name drop you, I just also didn't want to not give credit to the person that had me scratching my head.

Im happy to go with any of the 4 intepretations Ive come across, Id just like to know that everyone understood the same one and used it.
 
In agreement on this!

I think this seems to be what is shared at rules clinics, but I have not attended them.  See Wheels reply in that same facebook thread.

Any night when I can pull up the covers and say "I am a better ref right now than I was when I woke up," is a good day.
Omnia praesumuntur legitime facta donec probetur in contrarium.

Offline theMadStatter

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Re: How is this usually handled?
« Reply #36 on: August 18, 2011, 11:26:38 pm »

Im happy to go with any of the 4 intepretations Ive come across, Id just like to know that everyone understood the same one and used it.
 
In agreement on this!

I think this seems to be what is shared at rules clinics, but I have not attended them.  See Wheels reply in that same facebook thread.



The (advanced) ref clinic that I just attended last weekend showed this "box method", but used the tangent on the inside track, not the outside track.  The difference can make up to a 10" difference in places (plus the inside track has smooth curvature, while the outside has slight discontinuity where the straight aways meet the corners, which would cause this 10" difference to suddenly appear/disappear as the skaters transition from corner to straightaway - and worse, for a small area at the exit of turn two and four, there are actually two possible tangents from the mid point to the outside of the track, giving two possible boxes).


Offline Anton Deck

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Re: How is this usually handled?
« Reply #37 on: August 19, 2011, 12:26:30 am »

That was my post on facebook in response to roller derby rule of the day putting up a box diagram.
Yeah, I didn't mean to name drop you, I just also didn't want to not give credit to the person that had me scratching my head.

Im happy to go with any of the 4 intepretations Ive come across, Id just like to know that everyone understood the same one and used it.
 


In agreement on this!

I think this seems to be what is shared at rules clinics, but I have not attended them.  See Wheels reply in that same facebook thread.



No worries I was quite excited by my comment being picked up on, its like being a ta new school and someone noticing you for a reason other than wanting to take your lunch money.

The response from Wheels on their is fantastic. Im happy that the box method is the way to go.

 

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