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Author Topic: How is this usually handled?  (Read 21407 times)

Offline Griz

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How is this usually handled?
« on: June 27, 2011, 04:37:11 pm »
At a recent scrimmage, I was working as rear inside pack ref. All eight blockers were on the track. I do not recall if one or both jammers were on the track, but that is not really germane to the situation. At one point during this jam, there was a "no pack" as signaled by both myself and the forward IPR, within seconds I had three white and one black blocker in front of me. They were all within approximately four or five feet of each other. I looked and saw the remaining blockers spaced out at about 20-30 feet front to back in a line, starting more than ten feet in front of the four blockers in front of me. It appeared to me that this line of blockers had more than ten feet of separation between a couple of them.  I defined the pack as the four blockers in front of me.
The forward IPR shouted no pack... he looked to be near the very front of the forward blocker. He was at least 30-35 feet in front of me. I said "Pack is here". He again shouted "No Pack". At about the same time the jam was blown dead.
Without a photo or video of the incident I can't be sure of who was right, but both he and I believed we were making the right call at the time. Is there a hierarchy? How have others handled this kind of thing in the past?
Griz Lee Bare
Ref
NEO Roller Derby

Offline Bishop

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Which inside pack ref is responsible for pack definition?
« Reply #1 on: June 27, 2011, 04:57:15 pm »
I don't know of a heirarchy per se.  However, I have been informed that if pack definition falls primarily to any one ref, it's the rear inside pack ref.  My other suggestion would be to include information about where you're seeing a pack, e.g. "The pack is in the back."  Beyond that, it might just involve a discussion with the other pack ref about how to handle such situations in the future. 

OPRs can also be useful in these situations as they have much different viewing angles than the IPRs.  At ECDX 2010, I asked Judge Knot about assistance with pack definition by the OPRs.  He instructed us to initiate "No Pack" if we were certain there was a No Pack situation that wasn't being called.  So there might be an opportunity for OPRs to assist in your situation as well perhaps by confirming whichever call they deem correct when the IPRs have dissenting opinions.  You could limit it to hand signal [make it big a flashy in view of the incorrect IPR] and possibly ask them to echo the verbal communication.  Whatever the case, pack definition (hand/signal verbal) should be primarily the IPRs responsibility under normal circumstances.   

« Last Edit: June 27, 2011, 05:30:16 pm by Bishop »
Recommended Resources:WFTDA Rules Central, WFTDA officiating & Successful Sports Officiating
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Offline FNZebra

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Re: How is this usually handled?
« Reply #2 on: June 27, 2011, 06:01:37 pm »
In most of the bouts I've worked as IPR, I and the other IPR have decided before the bout began which of us is most responsible for declaring pack definition. Usually it has been the rear IPR, as the front IPR is usually watching for OOP chasing.

This has often been part of the officials meeting, so that all PRs know who they should be listening for declaring pack/no pack, and that they are all then responsible for watching for penalties at that time.
You will bout as you practice.


Cheers,

FN Zebra
Bleeding Heartland Roller Derby (WFTDA)
Bloomington, Indianer

Offline Ms. High-handed

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Re: How is this usually handled?
« Reply #3 on: June 27, 2011, 06:24:43 pm »
I think I understand you dilemma that not everyone knows approximately how far 10 feet or 20 feet can be on the track. You can use rope to help to recognized the distance especially in the motion movement, just ask the girls to help you out with the pack.

Of course it is as exercise.

Quote
This has often been part of the officials meeting, so that all PRs know who they should be listening for declaring pack/no pack, and that they are all then responsible for watching for penalties at that time.
even though at the end the person didn't know how far 10 feet or 20 feet are, just don't correct him but if you want, do it after the bout. Because decision has been made  :(
Some people take feedback differently, if he get offended easily, do it with rope 10" / 20"

good luck!!
« Last Edit: June 27, 2011, 06:34:13 pm by Ms. High-handed »

Offline Megapickle

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Re: How is this usually handled?
« Reply #4 on: July 01, 2011, 03:01:01 am »
It appeared to me that this line of blockers had more than ten feet of separation between a couple of them.

Honestly, I probably would've deferred to the front IPR, because he was so much closer to this all-important separation. That's assuming that the rear 4-person "mini-pack" was unmistakable, even from his distant position.

If the difference in opinion were that blatant or happened again, I'd double-check that everyone is using the right measuring-stick. It's not 10' along the track (as the flawed 10' lines might make you believe), it's 10' in any direction. Two skaters can be about even with each other, but if one is on the inside edge and the other is on the outside edge, they're potentially not in proximity & don't together make a pack.

Offline Black Adder

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Re: How is this usually handled?
« Reply #5 on: July 01, 2011, 03:44:43 am »
I think this call hinges on how close the 'other' skaters were in proximity to each other. Although they were in a line that doesn't make them not a 'pack' if each were within ten feet of the other then that would still make a second pack creating, in this instance a split pack eg...


x------o----x-------x                         00x0
    9ft     8ft   9.9ft         12ft          rear group


that's still a split pack so a 'No Pack' call is correct.

Offline PackMan

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Re: How is this usually handled?
« Reply #6 on: July 01, 2011, 05:44:38 am »
If the difference in opinion were that blatant or happened again, I'd double-check that everyone is using the right measuring-stick. It's not 10' along the track (as the flawed 10' lines might make you believe), it's 10' in any direction. Two skaters can be about even with each other, but if one is on the inside edge and the other is on the outside edge, they're potentially not in proximity & don't together make a pack.

Pretty sure that's wrong.  See 4.1.1.2 below.  Note that the definition of proximity includes the words "in front of or behind"
[rule]4.1.1.2Proximity is defined as not more than ten feet (as measured from the hips) in front of or behind the nearest pack skater[/rule]

Offline JoeXCore

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Re: How is this usually handled?
« Reply #7 on: July 01, 2011, 06:00:19 am »
If the difference in opinion were that blatant or happened again, I'd double-check that everyone is using the right measuring-stick. It's not 10' along the track (as the flawed 10' lines might make you believe), it's 10' in any direction. Two skaters can be about even with each other, but if one is on the inside edge and the other is on the outside edge, they're potentially not in proximity & don't together make a pack.

Pretty sure that's wrong.  See 4.1.1.2 below.  Note that the definition of proximity includes the words "in front of or behind"
[rule]4.1.1.2Proximity is defined as not more than ten feet (as measured from the hips) in front of or behind the nearest pack skater[/rule]


Pack Man, you are correct. Pickle definitely has this wrong.
Black n Bluegrass Roller Girls - head referee
MRDA Recognized Refree

Offline Megapickle

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Re: How is this usually handled?
« Reply #8 on: July 01, 2011, 06:37:06 am »
Pack Man, you are correct. Pickle definitely has this wrong.
Interesting. This past weekend, I asked this directly of the local gurus. Either they misunderstood my question, or our region is misapplying this rule. I'll run it by them again.

Now, if we're only evaluating front-back distance ("even" skaters have d=0, no matter how widely they're separated laterally), then that makes me wonder -- How do you evaluate on the curves? Are the proverbial "ten foot" lines taken as gospel, even though they're actually 7' on the inside & 14' on the outside? Is a series of skaters, each separated by 8' (eight actual feet), considered a pack on the outside of the curve but not a pack on the inside (because there's more than one "ten foot" line between them)?

Offline JoeXCore

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Re: How is this usually handled?
« Reply #9 on: July 01, 2011, 06:44:12 am »
Pack Man, you are correct. Pickle definitely has this wrong.
Interesting. This past weekend, I asked this directly of the local gurus. Either they misunderstood my question, or our region is misapplying this rule. I'll run it by them again.

Now, if we're only evaluating front-back distance ("even" skaters have d=0, no matter how widely they're separated laterally), then that makes me wonder -- How do you evaluate on the curves? Are the proverbial "ten foot" lines taken as gospel, even though they're actually 7' on the inside & 14' on the outside? Is a series of skaters, each separated by 8' (eight actual feet), considered a pack on the outside of the curve but not a pack on the inside (because there's more than one "ten foot" line between them)?

10 feet is 10 feet the lines are guides.
Black n Bluegrass Roller Girls - head referee
MRDA Recognized Refree

Offline mick hawkins

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Re: How is this usually handled?
« Reply #10 on: July 01, 2011, 07:39:45 am »
Pack Man, you are correct. Pickle definitely has this wrong.
Interesting. This past weekend, I asked this directly of the local gurus. Either they misunderstood my question, or our region is misapplying this rule. I'll run it by them again.

Now, if we're only evaluating front-back distance ("even" skaters have d=0, no matter how widely they're separated laterally), then that makes me wonder -- How do you evaluate on the curves? Are the proverbial "ten foot" lines taken as gospel, even though they're actually 7' on the inside & 14' on the outside? Is a series of skaters, each separated by 8' (eight actual feet), considered a pack on the outside of the curve but not a pack on the inside (because there's more than one "ten foot" line between them)?

There a nice explanation and pretty pictures on how to judge distances over here

Essentially the distance between skaters isn't what we judge.
Imagine a skater on the inside boundary and one adjacent on the outside boundary. Anywhere around the track this distance is >12 ft... but these skaters would be considered in the same spot when assessing the location of the pack.
Sun State Roller Girls (WFTDA Apprentice League)
Brisbane, Australia

Offline Megapickle

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Re: How is this usually handled?
« Reply #11 on: July 01, 2011, 08:01:49 am »
Lots of great discussion over in that thread, Mick, but I saw no consensus on how far apart these two skaters are:

14 feet 'forward' from the rear skater's perspective, or 7 feet 'backward' from the front skater? Split the difference & call it 10'?


Offline mick hawkins

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Re: How is this usually handled?
« Reply #12 on: July 01, 2011, 08:17:43 am »
This far...



EDIT... you might find this useful
« Last Edit: July 01, 2011, 08:22:09 am by mick hawkins »
Sun State Roller Girls (WFTDA Apprentice League)
Brisbane, Australia

Offline Megapickle

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Re: How is this usually handled?
« Reply #13 on: July 01, 2011, 08:42:50 am »
Ok, so effectively, you split the difference between the arcs of each skater. I can do that. Though I'm not sure it'll catch on among my non-math-inclined crew members. I envision glazed eyes & nodding heads.

And check the one comment you got on that File, from the day you uploaded it. :-)

Offline mick hawkins

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Re: How is this usually handled?
« Reply #14 on: July 01, 2011, 08:47:26 am »
It's just rectangles.

Wherever the skaters are, imagine a rectangle where the sides are at their hips.
or...
Imagine their position projected along a rectangle to the boundary (not along the sector lines)



oh, right.  Thanks for the comment  :)
Sun State Roller Girls (WFTDA Apprentice League)
Brisbane, Australia

 

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