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Author Topic: Panty Removal  (Read 5262 times)

Offline qwerty

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Panty Removal
« on: July 29, 2011, 12:13:32 am »
#10 QWERTY
All your skates are belong to us.
Not a ref, just a very rules-minded skater.

Offline Interrobang Yerdehd

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Re: Panty Removal
« Reply #1 on: July 29, 2011, 01:09:39 am »
My understanding is that if she was lead before the panty came off her head, and it was removed by any method other than her own deliberate removal of it, then she's lead when she puts it back on,unless she's gone to the box in the meantime.

As to whether she's lead while the panty's off her head, I'm less clear, but I lean toward thinking she is. The rules say an inactive jammer has all jammer abilities except for scoring and earning lead jammer, and in this scenario lead jammer status has already been earned. I'd argue that the ability to call off the jam as lead jammer falls better under "everything else" than under "earning lead jammer". Also, it seems unfair that a jammer could have the panty fall off her head without her knowing, and then get a penalty for trying to call off the jam, when she's been called lead earlier that jam.
I will have to accept full blame for what I tell you, since none of you are wearing
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Offline Justin Sanity

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Re: Panty Removal
« Reply #2 on: July 29, 2011, 03:05:36 am »
Hope this helps. From the "Official Rules Answer" Post.
Quote
http://www.zebrahuddle.com/index.php?topic=1723.msg24545#msg24545

Jammer loses helmet cover due to opponents block (3.4.6)

Note- this one is a bit messy but I did my best to preserve all the info, the only thing I changed was to capitalize a couple of letters and spelled out "committee".  Anything in bold was done so by the original poster.  The words that are not attributed to anyone in particular were written by Roastbeef (rules committee member)~panti


Quote from: Hambone
3.5.8.3 says:

3.5.8.3 If a star pass cannot be completed for any reason, the Jammer may return the helmet cover to her own helmet and regain her active Jammer position, but not her Lead Jammer status.

Okay Lead Jammer status can't ever be regained if a foe grabs at my helmet cover and pulls it off.  Got it.

But wait; a few rules earlier (3.4.6), it says:

3.4.6 The Lead Jammer is the only skater who has the privilege of calling off (ending) the jam prior to the expiration of the full two minutes. She may call off the jam at any time after her position has been established, unless she has been removed from the jam due to a penalty or her helmet cover has been removed. She calls off the jam by repeatedly placing both hands on her hips until the referee whistles the end of the jam. The jam is not over until the referee officially calls off the jam. If there is no Lead Jammer, the jam will run until the full two-minute time limit expires.

How about that... I guess there is at least once circumstance where Lead Jammer *can* be regained, after all.

Presumably we should mentally strike the "for any reason" phrase in 3.5.8.3, because buried in the middle of a long paragraph of 3.4.6 there's a very specific exception to it.  Right?  Or at least scribble in a mental reference to the exception described in 3.4.6?

Either that, or a 'star pass' is a phrase which only applies to intentional star passes initiated by the star-owning team?  (Not in the glossary)

Answer:
Quote from: Grace Killy
Having the cover knocked off your head by an opponent is not the same as a star pass.

and

Quote from: CorbinCojones
A cover removed by an opponent (either by naughty hands or hard hit) and then replaced on the head of a lead jammer does not end her status as lead jammer.

Correct.

Also:

Quote from: CorbinCojones
A cover placed on the helmet all akimbo that pops off on it's own accord from the lead jammer's head ends her status as lead jammer.

Yes, if it is not the result of "an opponent's action"

Quote from: Rev Riot
Can a Lead Jammer who has the helmet cover removed from her head call off the jam?

3.4.6 says she will "regain Lead Jammer status", but 3.4.7 says she "retains Lead Jammer status for the duration of the Jam unless SHE FORFEITS the status by; 3.4.7.1 Removing her helmet cover for any reason; 3.4.7.2 Being removed from play due to a penalty"

She didn't remove the helmet cover, she had it removed, so 3.4.7.1 doesn't apply, and obviously 3.4.7.2 doesn't apply. In the sense of fairness I don't see why if an opponent were to grab the cover she should have to chase them down first to call off the jam. Of course I'd probably call it off anyway, but I also don't see why that would warrant a penalty, minor or major.

The rules are clear that she must have it back on her helmet to regain lead, and therefore call it off.

If an opponent were to grab it off of the opposing Jammer's helmet and run (skate) away, Rules Committee agreed that act is expulsion worthy and in some cases would be justification for the jam to be called off by the referee.

*edit: this official rules response may be shared w/ non WFTDA referees
Justin Sanity
Referee - DC Rollergirls
WFTDA Level 3 Certified Referee
WFTDA Referee Certification Committee - Worker Bee

Offline PackMan

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Re: Panty Removal
« Reply #3 on: July 29, 2011, 03:36:37 am »
Good catch Justin.  That's just what we needed here.  +1

So....my simplification....somebody tell me if I'm reading this right.

Star not on head = not lead

Star comes off lead's head for any reason not caused by opponent = not lead for rest of jam

star comes off lead's head due to opponent's action, then jammer retrieves and replaces star = lead restored

Offline mick hawkins

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Re: Panty Removal
« Reply #4 on: July 29, 2011, 04:09:23 am »
So....my simplification....somebody tell me if I'm reading this right.

Star not on head = not lead
Star not on helmet = inactive jammer. Inactive Jammer cant call off the jam.

Sun State Roller Girls (WFTDA Apprentice League)
Brisbane, Australia

Offline qwerty

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Re: Panty Removal
« Reply #5 on: July 29, 2011, 05:06:59 pm »
Thanks guys.

To clarify, the cover was back on before the jammer signaled to end the jam so they were technically active and they retrieved the cover legally and without penalty so there's that.

Justin, I read that post and it was a bit hard to follow but it looks like unless the cover was deliberately removed by the jammer, as in she takes it off her head, she could retrieve it and regain her status as lead if all the rules were followed in the retrieval process. But I've also read other posts wherein if the cover comes off, spontaneously with no assistance by either the jammer or any blockers, the jammer loses the ability to regain her status as lead after successfully retrieving the cover and placing it back on their helmet.
#10 QWERTY
All your skates are belong to us.
Not a ref, just a very rules-minded skater.

Offline Two Bit Score

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Re: Panty Removal
« Reply #6 on: July 29, 2011, 09:58:42 pm »
Ok. How about this: Assuming it was knocked off, by an opponents action, does the jammer have to still recover the cover while skating counterclockwise and within the engagement zone?
Any night when I can pull up the covers and say "I am a better ref right now than I was when I woke up," is a good day.
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Offline The Gorram Reaver

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Re: Panty Removal
« Reply #7 on: July 29, 2011, 10:43:45 pm »
Ok. How about this: Assuming it was knocked off, by an opponents action, does the jammer have to still recover the cover while skating counterclockwise and within the engagement zone?

Helmet covers may never be retrieved by skating in a clockwise direction (rule 3.5.8.2).  Jammers are never required to remain within the Engagement Zone to perform any action (rule 3.3.2.1).
The Gorram Reaver
Mad Rollin' Dolls, Madison, WI

Offline FNZebra

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Re: Panty Removal
« Reply #8 on: July 30, 2011, 12:16:02 am »
Ok. How about this: Assuming it was knocked off, by an opponents action, does the jammer have to still recover the cover while skating counterclockwise and within the engagement zone?

Helmet covers may never be retrieved by skating in a clockwise direction (rule 3.5.8.2).  Jammers are never required to remain within the Engagement Zone to perform any action (rule 3.3.2.1).

Except to pass the star. A Jammer must be in the EZ to pass the star. I think that's what Meh was getting at. Recovery of a dropped helmet cover does not have to be within the EZ, or even within bounds.

Just can't skate clockwise to do so.

[rule]3.5.1
The star may be transferred by either Jammer while in the Engagement Zone. Jammers and pivots must be within the Engagement Zone play to pass the star.[/rule]
You will bout as you practice.


Cheers,

FN Zebra
Bleeding Heartland Roller Derby (WFTDA)
Bloomington, Indianer

Offline The Gorram Reaver

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Re: Panty Removal
« Reply #9 on: July 30, 2011, 01:39:30 am »
Except to pass the star. A Jammer must be in the EZ to pass the star. I think that's what Meh was getting at. Recovery of a dropped helmet cover does not have to be within the EZ, or even within bounds.

Just can't skate clockwise to do so.

[rule]3.5.1
The star may be transferred by either Jammer while in the Engagement Zone. Jammers and pivots must be within the Engagement Zone play to pass the star.[/rule]
Well, yeah.  Except that.  ;)
The Gorram Reaver
Mad Rollin' Dolls, Madison, WI

 

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