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Author Topic: Entire Pack starting behind jammer line  (Read 50813 times)

Offline JoeXCore

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Re: Entire Pack starting behind jammer line
« Reply #15 on: July 15, 2011, 03:22:15 am »
The situation you describe would only cause the jam to end in an Official Time Out if there was only one other Blocker on the track, because that is the only way two Blockers/Pivots can constitute a majority of the Blockers/Pivots from both teams.

Also, you mis-read the "majority" concept. Two in-place & two out-of-place results in a call-off. Jam only continues if the majority (greater than 50%) are in-place.

While I agree with your statement in regards to that is what it says.
My "diagram" was me pointing out that I do not think that was the intent.
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Offline The Gorram Reaver

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Re: Entire Pack starting behind jammer line
« Reply #16 on: July 15, 2011, 03:31:32 am »
OK.  I'm going to go with conflicting English/poor proof reading.  I'm also going to get an answer from Rules Com....
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Offline mick hawkins

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Re: Entire Pack starting behind jammer line
« Reply #17 on: July 15, 2011, 03:37:15 am »
Not necessarily.  Bold emphasis mine. 
[rule]If at the first whistle, the majority of on the track Blockers and Pivot Blockers from both teams are not in position, the referee must immediately end the jam and an Official Timeout will be called.[/rule]

plus...

| X X X                    |  O O O O
| X                          | *
|                             | *

Is not "both" teams not in position... so "both teams" can't be a requirement for the clarification to apply (otherwise we're back where we started)
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Offline Megapickle

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Re: Entire Pack starting behind jammer line
« Reply #18 on: July 15, 2011, 03:38:14 am »
Yeah, Reaver, please do. But I'm confident that they intended that each team needs an "internal" majority in-place. "Both" can be interpreted either your way or mine, whereas "each" has a more specific meaning.

The Pivot-Line vs Pivot-on-the-Line one could truly go either way, though, and really needs to be cleaned up. If they meant Pivot-on-the-Line, then if she manages to stick her hips behind two opponents right before the whistle, then again, the jam is called. Lame.

Offline JoeXCore

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Re: Entire Pack starting behind jammer line
« Reply #19 on: July 15, 2011, 03:39:41 am »
Pickle you are %100 correct in regards to each.
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Offline mick hawkins

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Re: Entire Pack starting behind jammer line
« Reply #20 on: July 15, 2011, 03:47:46 am »
If they meant Pivot-on-the-Line, then if she manages to stick her hips behind two opponents right before the whistle, then again, the jam is called. Lame.

not sold on that one

While it says "Blockers are considered in position when they are lined up behind the Pivot and ahead of the Jammer line."
That's not actually what's specified in the rules.
« Last Edit: July 15, 2011, 03:57:12 am by mick hawkins »
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Offline Megapickle

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Re: Entire Pack starting behind jammer line
« Reply #21 on: July 15, 2011, 04:00:41 am »
Check the URL, Mick. These "Publications" are the rules.

Anyway, it probably does mean "Pivot line" (myself, I am going with this meaning for now). But interpreting it as just "Pivot" (i.e. the striped skater) is not far-fetched by any means. Obviously, if said Pivot is on the line, then the blockers ahead of her are out of position per 6.13.5.2.3.
« Last Edit: July 15, 2011, 04:03:47 am by Megapickle »

Offline mick hawkins

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Re: Entire Pack starting behind jammer line
« Reply #22 on: July 15, 2011, 04:02:36 am »
Mick, did you read the line I quoted above?
[rule]Blockers are considered in position when they are lined up behind the Pivot and ahead of the Jammer line.[/rule]

It's just sloppy writing, and probably does mean "Pivot line" (myself, I am going with this meaning for now). But interpreting it as just "Pivot" (i.e. the striped skater) is not far-fetched by any means.

ah... here I am agreeing with you and didn't realise.

I dont think the clarifications are rules as such - more an explanation on how to call the rules.
The clarifications don't override or contradict the rules - the rules still apply
"Rules Publications are released by the WFTDA Rules Committee periodically throughout the year, providing official guidance for interpretation of the rules."
« Last Edit: July 15, 2011, 04:07:04 am by mick hawkins »
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Offline Cliquework

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Re: Entire Pack starting behind jammer line
« Reply #23 on: July 15, 2011, 04:06:59 am »
Nope, Reaver, two blocker-false-starts from one team does necessarily mean the jam is called off. Your quote needs to include the previous sentence as well:

While I agree with your statement in regards to that is what it says.
My "diagram" was me pointing out that I do not think that was the intent.

Consider the precept when considering multiple lines.

[rule]Prior to the start of a jam, Blockers and Pivots must be in position in pre-jam formation so that the pack will exist behind the pivot line and in front of the Jammer line at the time of the first whistle or immediately after the first whistle should the Jam begin with a No Pack.[/rule]
« Last Edit: July 15, 2011, 04:09:28 am by Cliquework »
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Re: Entire Pack starting behind jammer line
« Reply #24 on: July 15, 2011, 04:33:57 am »
I've asked about both the either/both issue and the "behind the Pivot" issue.  I suspect, for the latter, because they have referenced the applicable sections of the rules citing position requirements that they intend that to be interpreted as "behind the Pivot line and any Pivot who is on the line".  But it doesn't hurt to get that verified.

Cheers!
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Offline gnrl grievance

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Re: Entire Pack starting behind jammer line
« Reply #25 on: July 15, 2011, 04:36:53 am »
Mick, did you read the line I quoted above?
[rule]Blockers are considered in position when they are lined up behind the Pivot and ahead of the Jammer line.[/rule]

It's just sloppy writing, and probably does mean "Pivot line" (myself, I am going with this meaning for now). But interpreting it as just "Pivot" (i.e. the striped skater) is not far-fetched by any means.

ah... here I am agreeing with you and didn't realise.

I dont think the clarifications are rules as such - more an explanation on how to call the rules.
The clarifications don't override or contradict the rules - the rules still apply
"Rules Publications are released by the WFTDA Rules Committee periodically throughout the year, providing official guidance for interpretation of the rules."


I get that a pedantic ref may interpret it to mean just 'pivot' and no it's not far-fetched to assume they may call off the jam if two blockers false start because the pivot moves her hips backwards 5 seconds before the whistle but surely if you take a purposive approach to the interpretation this would be absurd and not the rules committee's intention.

Just like any poorly worded piece of legislation, one person's interpretation may be vastly different to another's, however I still agree with Mick that a plain meaning interpretation of the rules in any ordinary situation would not call for calling off the jam just because the blockers started ahead of the hips of the pivot. This is of course just my humble opinion and would be happy to be corrected  ;D

Offline mick hawkins

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Re: Entire Pack starting behind jammer line
« Reply #26 on: July 15, 2011, 05:26:15 am »
One odd consequence: If a team has a poodle-er, and also a single blocker that steps across the line a half-second early, we're supposed to call off the jam. :-/

Not necessarily.  Bold emphasis mine. 
[rule]If at the first whistle, the majority of on the track Blockers and Pivot Blockers from both teams are not in position, the referee must immediately end the jam and an Official Timeout will be called.[/rule]
The situation you describe would only cause the jam to end in an Official Time Out if there was only one other Blocker on the track, because that is the only way two Blockers/Pivots can constitute a majority of the Blockers/Pivots from both teams.

Pickle is right if that team has only those 2 blockers on the track in that particular jam.

Actually JXC I'm not sure that's right, so I understand correctly, I read it as...
a team has 3 blockers in position and one poodling
if one of the in position blockers false starts - the team had only has 2 blockers in position which is not a majority of blockers on the track

I believe this is what Megapickle is saying. That right?
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Offline Megapickle

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Re: Entire Pack starting behind jammer line
« Reply #27 on: July 15, 2011, 05:31:08 am »
Right, Mick, as long as you don't dramatically edit your post, that IS what I'm saying.  ;)

Majority from each team (3 of 4, or 2 of 3, or 2 of 2) must be "in position" at the 1st whistle, or else we call it off. Dumb, but as I see it, true.

They're obviously going to have to clarify this clarification. We shouldn't be put in the place of parsing this mess.

Offline mick hawkins

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Re: Entire Pack starting behind jammer line
« Reply #28 on: July 15, 2011, 05:35:03 am »
Right, Mick, as long as you don't dramatically edit your post, that IS what I'm saying.  ;)

hey, it's not my fault you're so quick   ;)
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Offline Black Adder

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Re: Entire Pack starting behind jammer line
« Reply #29 on: July 15, 2011, 06:22:35 am »
I think the 'Pivot' - 'Pivot Line' issue is a little pointless

The rules still state


 
[rule]3.1 BLOCKER
3.1.1
Prior to the start of a jam, Blockers line up behind the Pivots and ahead of the Jammers. They play a key role in determining the position of the pack and keeping the pack formed. Blockers never score points. Only the Pivot Blocker may become eligible to score points, according to the specifications in Section 3.5 Passing the Star. [/rule]


but is expanded upon in

 
[rule]4.2.3 Non-Pivot Blocker Starting Positions: Blockers line up behind the Pivots as demarked by the hips. If a Pivot is not on the Pivot line, Non-Pivot Blockers are not required to line up behind her.[/rule]


So the clarification is still in line with the rules as written.

I think the important line is
 [rule]Blockers and Pivots must be in position in pre-jam formation so that the pack will exist behind the pivot line and in front of the Jammer line at the time of the first whistle or immediately after the first whistle should the Jam begin with a No Pack.[/rule]
« Last Edit: July 15, 2011, 06:26:36 am by Black Adder »

 

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