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Author Topic: Entire Pack starting behind jammer line  (Read 53229 times)

Offline JoeXCore

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Re: Entire Pack starting behind jammer line
« Reply #30 on: July 15, 2011, 06:30:48 am »
One odd consequence: If a team has a poodle-er, and also a single blocker that steps across the line a half-second early, we're supposed to call off the jam. :-/

Not necessarily.  Bold emphasis mine. 
[rule]If at the first whistle, the majority of on the track Blockers and Pivot Blockers from both teams are not in position, the referee must immediately end the jam and an Official Timeout will be called.[/rule]
The situation you describe would only cause the jam to end in an Official Time Out if there was only one other Blocker on the track, because that is the only way two Blockers/Pivots can constitute a majority of the Blockers/Pivots from both teams.

Pickle is right if that team has only those 2 blockers on the track in that particular jam.

Actually JXC I'm not sure that's right, so I understand correctly, I read it as...
a team has 3 blockers in position and one poodling
if one of the in position blockers false starts - the team had only has 2 blockers in position which is not a majority of blockers on the track

I believe this is what Megapickle is saying. That right?

Yes I later realized that the if in my statement was frivolous in that particular regard he is simply correct.
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Offline Black Adder

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Re: Entire Pack starting behind jammer line
« Reply #31 on: July 15, 2011, 06:37:29 am »
So this would not be called off?
Just checking

l xxo           looo
lxx              l*
l                 l*

as there is still a pack after the whistle and a majority of blockers are in place.
Also with the wording this would still be ok if the 'o' between pivot and jammer line was on a knee.

Offline Megapickle

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Re: Entire Pack starting behind jammer line
« Reply #32 on: July 15, 2011, 06:42:44 am »
Really, we've got to reserve judgement till we hear more from the Rules Committee before we start applying it to examples.

By Reaver & Clique's interpretation, this would be acceptable, and the jam would continue, even if the foremost O were on a knee at the 1st whistle, because once she stood, the pack would be "in position".

By mine, it's a call-off, because the Os do not have a majority "in position".

Offline Black Adder

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Re: Entire Pack starting behind jammer line
« Reply #33 on: July 15, 2011, 06:46:37 am »
Cheers guys.
Just getting my head around the wording..

Offline JoeXCore

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Re: Entire Pack starting behind jammer line
« Reply #34 on: July 15, 2011, 07:11:34 am »
Woops... I totally just accidentally deleted a post that I made.

Anyway what I meant to say was that I don't think Clique disagrees with the idea that...


XXXXO    Jammer line OOO

would result in a call off

This is pretty clear

[rule]       It is required that the majority of on the track Pivot Blockers and Blockers from each team begin in this pre-jam positioning.   [/rule]
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Offline Megapickle

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Re: Entire Pack starting behind jammer line
« Reply #35 on: July 15, 2011, 07:20:52 am »
Clique's point was that when these two apparently conflicting sentences are right next to one another:
[rule]It is required that the majority of on the track Pivot Blockers and Blockers from each team begin in this pre-jam positioning.

If at the first whistle, the majority of on the track Blockers and Pivot Blockers from both teams are not in position, the referee must immediately end the jam...[/rule]

... we should think about the functional purpose of this publication: To ensure that the pack as a whole is placed where it belongs (per the intro). From that sliver of insight, I extrapolate that he means that overall majority of all 8 blockers is what we should analyze. Again, I disagree. But he & Reaver are the certified refs, & I'm the "pedantic" noob.

Offline Interrobang Yerdehd

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Re: Entire Pack starting behind jammer line
« Reply #36 on: July 15, 2011, 07:30:01 am »
Okay, I've been staring at this for maybe two hours now. Here're my thoughts:

Pivot vs. Pivot Line
I don't like it, but the two sentences just before the one in question both say "pivot line". I think they really do mean "pivot".

Each vs. Both
Reading it as "the majority of blockers regardless of team" means that, with one O in the box, this line-up:

l xx             l  ooo
lxx              l*
l                 l*

doesn't trigger a jam call-off since 4 of 7 blockers are in position. Clearly, this is counter to the intent of the clarification.
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Offline Mick Suffolk

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Re: Entire Pack starting behind jammer line
« Reply #37 on: July 15, 2011, 12:44:04 pm »
This is how I'm seeing and reading it all be it with a spinning head...


|o            | xo                  
|x            |* ox                  
|              |* xo                  
Call off

|x              |
|x  x          |  oo
|  x            |* oo
No Call Off = Worst Play in Derby = Massive Headache
Call Off

|x              |
|x              |*  oo
|  x            |*  oo
Call Off ( 1 in the box)

Majority Behind Jammer Line =  5/8  6/8  7/8  8/8  Immediate call Off Etc
Majority In position =  5/8  6/8  7/8  8/8 Jam is on
                                    4/4 Equal in Number Jam is on (as above)

[rule]If at the first whistle, the majority of on the track Blockers and Pivot Blockers from both teams are not in position, the referee must immediately end the jam...[/rule]

Thats how I'd call it going on the "clarification"..but then again I could have got it arse about face ;)

« Last Edit: July 15, 2011, 03:08:30 pm by Rex Pistols »

Offline Graeme

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Re: Entire Pack starting behind jammer line
« Reply #38 on: July 15, 2011, 01:56:20 pm »
This is how I'm seeing and reading it all be it with a spinning head...


|o            | xo                   
|x            |* ox                 
|              |* xo                 
Call off

|x              |
|x  x          |  oo
|  x            |* oo
No Call Off = Worst Play in Derby = Massive Headache


|x              |
|x              |*  oo
|  x            |*  oo
Call Off ( 1 in the box)

Majority Behind Jammer Line =  5/8  6/8  7/8  8/8  Immediate call Off Etc
Majority In position =  5/8  6/8  7/8  8/8 Jam is on
                                    4/4 Equal in Number Jam is on (as above)

[rule]If at the first whistle, the majority of on the track Blockers and Pivot Blockers from both teams are not in position, the referee must immediately end the jam...[/rule]

Thats how I'd call it going on the "clarification"..but then again I could have got it arse about face ;)


Bolded...  I disagree, since there is no majority, it much like the pack definition, the Majority of blocker from both teams... so a 4 & 4 split = no Majority...

Offline Mick Suffolk

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Re: Entire Pack starting behind jammer line
« Reply #39 on: July 15, 2011, 02:11:06 pm »
Bolded...  I disagree, since there is no majority, it much like the pack definition, the Majority of blocker from both teams... so a 4 & 4 split = no Majority...

So on that basis would you call the Jam off?...am starting to wonder about that one now

Offline Cliquework

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Re: Entire Pack starting behind jammer line
« Reply #40 on: July 15, 2011, 02:13:23 pm »
Half is not a majority from both teams.
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Offline Megapickle

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Re: Entire Pack starting behind jammer line
« Reply #41 on: July 15, 2011, 02:20:34 pm »
If we're going down that road, I'll point out this gem of logical ambiguity: In the sentence quoted just above, it says "if the majority...are not in position". That could be interpreted as "if the majority are out of position", OR as "if there's not a majority that are in position". Both are "right", and when the in/out split is 50/50, it matters which way you read it.

Seriously, time to find a new proof-reader.

Offline Cliquework

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Re: Entire Pack starting behind jammer line
« Reply #42 on: July 15, 2011, 02:38:40 pm »
I don't believe it's too complicated when we think about what it is were penalizing and why. Look at the whole.

Is having a poodle, perhaps even two, from one team an illegal procedure so great we have to call off the jam? No

Is having an entire team or pack behind the jammer line unduly affecting gameplay and go outside of the original intended starts of jams with the jammers 30ft behind the blockers? Yes. 150 is different than 30?

So what are the penalties we're seeing here?

Minors - As those players false started.

Major - Much like having too many skaters on the track, this additional major is for having the jam blown dead in response to this infraction. Goes to the pivot or person most applicable in just the same way.
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Offline Graeme

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Re: Entire Pack starting behind jammer line
« Reply #43 on: July 15, 2011, 02:59:07 pm »
Bolded...  I disagree, since there is no majority, it much like the pack definition, the Majority of blocker from both teams... so a 4 & 4 split = no Majority...

So on that basis would you call the Jam off?...am starting to wonder about that one now

Yes I would since there isn't a Majority from both teams in the correct position, ie between the Pivot and Jammer lines.

Offline Mick Suffolk

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Re: Entire Pack starting behind jammer line
« Reply #44 on: July 15, 2011, 03:13:18 pm »
I don't believe it's too complicated when we think about what it is were penalizing and why. Look at the whole.

Is having a poodle, perhaps even two, from one team an illegal procedure so great we have to call off the jam? No

Is having an entire team or pack behind the jammer line unduly affecting gameplay and go outside of the original intended starts of jams with the jammers 30ft behind the blockers? Yes. 150 is different than 30?

So what are the penalties we're seeing here?

Minors - As those players false started.

Major - Much like having too many skaters on the track, this additional major is for having the jam blown dead in response to this infraction. Goes to the pivot or person most applicable in just the same way.

+1

From my point of veiw put in context like that makes it far easier to sink in and understand. :)

 

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