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Author Topic: Entire Pack starting behind jammer line  (Read 50878 times)

Offline Slaying Mantis

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Entire Pack starting behind jammer line
« on: July 09, 2011, 05:15:41 am »
Okay, so, somewhat related, perhaps more appropriate in the "Hypothetical Rules" section (and yes, I have followed the entire "team behind the jammer line" thread about this recently and feel I can grasp how these are called)... but what if the *entire pack* lines up behind the jammer line?

I am just waiting for this to happen, and soon, given the tenacity of (our beloved) skaters to find as many loopholes in the rules as possible. My first instinct is, all skaters minor false start?  OR, jam whistled dead due to impact of game play?

But, in the case of false starts... there are no skaters to "yield" to, so no possibility of upgrade to major, as the pack is already established, granted it is way ahead of the pivot line. How to assess this kind of SNAFU?

Offline Riff Reff

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Entire Pack starting behind jammer line
« Reply #1 on: July 09, 2011, 10:38:40 am »
in this case: False start penalties to everyone. they'd all have to come to a complete stop, which is what you do to yield if there is no one to yield to. If they all stop, all false start minors. If a skater does not stop -> upgrade.

Quote
but what if the *entire pack* lines up behind the jammer line?


I cannot really imagine why this could be beneficial for both teams.
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Offline Brad Religion

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Entire Pack starting behind jammer line
« Reply #2 on: July 09, 2011, 01:37:02 pm »
I can think of a reason or two... But I try not to discuss strategy or the reasons behind it around here. Just know that there are teams that will do this if the other tries it.
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Offline Cliquework

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Re: Entire Pack starting behind jammer line
« Reply #3 on: July 09, 2011, 07:56:43 pm »
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Offline James Harper

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Re: Entire Pack starting behind jammer line
« Reply #4 on: July 11, 2011, 05:58:01 pm »
I can think of a reason or two... But I try not to discuss strategy or the reasons behind it around here. Just know that there are teams that will do this if the other tries it.

Would this be considered adversly affecting gameplay and there for have the jam blown dead?

My initial thought is no, but can see an arguement from both sides.
These are merely my interpretations and opinions. I am here to gain and share knowledge.

If I am mistaken or calling incorrectly I am happy to be educated.

Offline Pol E. Dangerous

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Re: Entire Pack starting behind jammer line
« Reply #5 on: July 11, 2011, 11:52:00 pm »
I can think of a reason or two... But I try not to discuss strategy or the reasons behind it around here. Just know that there are teams that will do this if the other tries it.

Would this be considered adversly affecting gameplay and there for have the jam blown dead?

My initial thought is no, but can see an arguement from both sides.

If every blocker lines up behind the jammer line, then every blocker will receive a Minor IP - False Start.  Following that, there could be a discussion about how can the blockers yield to each other when they are all false starting.

Once that has been established, all the blockers are in the pack, so the game continues, no major impact.
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Offline The Gorram Reaver

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Re: Entire Pack starting behind jammer line
« Reply #6 on: July 12, 2011, 02:41:35 am »
If every blocker lines up behind the jammer line, then every blocker will receive a Minor IP - False Start.  Following that, there could be a discussion about how can the blockers yield to each other when they are all false starting.

Once that has been established, all the blockers are in the pack, so the game continues, no major impact.

I would argue that the Blockers must also yield any advantage they have gained on the Jammers, just as a false starting Jammer who doesn't have an opposing Jammer must yield the advantage gained on the pack.  In other words, I would issue major penalties to Blockers who engage or pace the Jammers immediately following the Jammer start whistle.  After all, the Jammers have every right to expect that they can move freely for at least ten feet before engagement, and that all skaters who will be engaging them just after their start whistle will be in front of them when they begin.  That is the true advantage that the pack is gaining by lining up behind the Jammer line.
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Offline Megapickle

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Re: Entire Pack starting behind jammer line
« Reply #7 on: July 12, 2011, 04:01:06 am »
I would argue that the Blockers must also yield any advantage they have gained on the Jammers, just as a false starting Jammer who doesn't have an opposing Jammer must yield the advantage gained on the pack.

Reaver, that's not quite right. The Rules Committee comment on the topic: http://www.zebrahuddle.com/index.php?topic=1723.msg24550#msg24550 simply says that the Jammer must stop. She doesn't have to wait till the pack is any particular distance in front of her, or even in front of her at all.

Edit: Nevermind, on further thought, the explanation linked above still leaves open your interpretation that the Jammer should yield to the pack, because of the phrase "yield the illegally gained position". It doesn't specifically state whom that position is relative to. But I still stand by this part of my post:

The language of 6.13.5 and 6.13.16 consistently uses "Jammer or Blocker(s)", instead of simply "skater(s)", clearly with the intent to make make it apply respectively. That is, Jammers yield to Jammers, and Blockers yield to Blockers.
« Last Edit: July 12, 2011, 04:59:42 am by Megapickle »

Offline JoeXCore

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Re: Entire Pack starting behind jammer line
« Reply #8 on: July 15, 2011, 01:00:15 am »
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Offline Megapickle

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Re: Entire Pack starting behind jammer line
« Reply #9 on: July 15, 2011, 01:30:07 am »
http://wftda.com/rules/publications

This is now addressed.

Seems like the nuclear option, but good to see. One odd consequence: If a team has a poodle-er, and also a single blocker that steps across the line a half-second early, we're supposed to call off the jam. :-/

Now here's hoping we see a similar swift & harsh response to the 2-minute jam-that-wasn't from ECDX:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sbSCsITycPw
« Last Edit: July 15, 2011, 03:07:45 am by Megapickle »

Offline The Gorram Reaver

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Re: Entire Pack starting behind jammer line
« Reply #10 on: July 15, 2011, 02:54:14 am »
One odd consequence: If a team has a poodle-er, and also a single blocker that steps across the line a half-second early, we're supposed to call off the jam. :-/

Not necessarily.  Bold emphasis mine. 
[rule]If at the first whistle, the majority of on the track Blockers and Pivot Blockers from both teams are not in position, the referee must immediately end the jam and an Official Timeout will be called.[/rule]
The situation you describe would only cause the jam to end in an Official Time Out if there was only one other Blocker on the track, because that is the only way two Blockers/Pivots can constitute a majority of the Blockers/Pivots from both teams.
The Gorram Reaver
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Offline JoeXCore

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Re: Entire Pack starting behind jammer line
« Reply #11 on: July 15, 2011, 02:56:55 am »
One odd consequence: If a team has a poodle-er, and also a single blocker that steps across the line a half-second early, we're supposed to call off the jam. :-/

Not necessarily.  Bold emphasis mine. 
[rule]If at the first whistle, the majority of on the track Blockers and Pivot Blockers from both teams are not in position, the referee must immediately end the jam and an Official Timeout will be called.[/rule]
The situation you describe would only cause the jam to end in an Official Time Out if there was only one other Blocker on the track, because that is the only way two Blockers/Pivots can constitute a majority of the Blockers/Pivots from both teams.

Pickle is right if that team has only those 2 blockers on the track in that particular jam.
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Offline Megapickle

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Re: Entire Pack starting behind jammer line
« Reply #12 on: July 15, 2011, 03:00:48 am »
Nope, Reaver, two blocker-false-starts from one team does necessarily mean the jam is called off. Your quote needs to include the previous sentence as well:
[rule]It is required that the majority of on the track Pivot Blockers and Blockers from each team begin in this pre-jam positioning.[/rule]

The one you quoted with "both" is just lazy English. As is this one:
[rule]Blockers are considered in position when they are lined up behind the Pivot and ahead of the Jammer line.[/rule]

Either they meant "Pivot Line", or "any Pivot touching the Pivot Line". Makes little sense as written.

Offline JoeXCore

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Re: Entire Pack starting behind jammer line
« Reply #13 on: July 15, 2011, 03:05:13 am »
I do not think the intent was for a

| X X X X                    |  O O
| O O                         | *
|                                | *

situation to result in a jam call off

is that "diagram" a good representation of what I am trying to say?
Black n Bluegrass Roller Girls - head referee
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Offline Megapickle

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Re: Entire Pack starting behind jammer line
« Reply #14 on: July 15, 2011, 03:17:36 am »
The situation you describe would only cause the jam to end in an Official Time Out if there was only one other Blocker on the track, because that is the only way two Blockers/Pivots can constitute a majority of the Blockers/Pivots from both teams.

Also, you mis-read the "majority" concept. Two in-place & two out-of-place results in a call-off. Jam only continues if the majority (greater than 50%) are in-place.

 

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