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Author Topic: Leaving the box during lineup, minor or major Illegal Procedure?  (Read 20864 times)

Offline Wheels Bohr

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I think this should be an easy one, but thought it best to confirm. If a skater leaves the penalty box to talk to her teammates during lineup and returns to the box before the jam starts, what penalties (if any) would you assess?

Although it's not technically a timeout, using the rules as a guide I think this would be a minor IP:
[rule]6.13.13  A penalized skater who leaves the penalty box during either a team or official timeout.[/rule]

however, I could see a ref arguing that since it's not specified in the minors section, it would fall under the more general major IP of:
[rule]6.13.25  A skater exiting the penalty box before her penalty time finishes. (Note: If the penalty box official instructs the skater to leave early, this penalty does not apply.)[/rule]

Anyone opposed to applying 6.13.13 in this case?
Wheels Bohr
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Offline mick hawkins

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Re: Leaving the box during lineup, minor or major Illegal Procedure?
« Reply #1 on: October 09, 2011, 11:36:33 pm »
Good question. I don't have a definitive answer but...

During a bout this past weekend, a Captain came into the centre from the penalty box, between jams, and began questioning something from the previous jam.
I responded to her question with "You're supposed to be in the penalty box"
To which she gave a really surprised "Oh, shit!" and took off back to the box.

I issued her with a minor IP.

I didn't see her action as having a major impact on the game; it's not like she joined a jam in progress.

I think this was the correct call based on the situation, but will happily be corrected.
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Offline The Doc

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Re: Leaving the box during lineup, minor or major Illegal Procedure?
« Reply #2 on: October 10, 2011, 12:03:34 am »
I would go major, with an insubordination, the ref put her in the box and she did not stay. Please let me know what yall think. i do agree with the minor impact. i dont know. i have been lucky enough not to have to make this happen to me yet
to the death of fun

Offline Noah Tall

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Re: Leaving the box during lineup, minor or major Illegal Procedure?
« Reply #3 on: October 10, 2011, 03:05:16 am »
I would give a minor, based on the next rule [rule]6.13.14
A penalized skater's teammates, manager, and/or coach who enters the designated penalty box area to communicate with a penalized skater. If the person entering is not a skater in the bout the penalty will go to the Captain.[/rule]

While there was no one entering the box, the skater did leave the box to communicate, and then return.  The effect was the same as in the above rule.
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Offline The Doc

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Re: Leaving the box during lineup, minor or major Illegal Procedure?
« Reply #4 on: October 10, 2011, 03:19:33 am »
I would give a minor, based on the next rule [rule]6.13.14
A penalized skater's teammates, manager, and/or coach who enters the designated penalty box area to communicate with a penalized skater. If the person entering is not a skater in the bout the penalty will go to the Captain.[/rule]

While there was no one entering the box, the skater did leave the box to communicate, and then return.  The effect was the same as in the above rule.



i under stand that, but if she is sitting in the box and a skater goes into the box and starts talking, the skater in the box has done nothing wrong. but in this case. the skater left the box on her own free will. talk to her team, and went back to the box b/c she know she needed to be in there. i dont think it has a "major" impact, but it is a slap in the face to the ref that put her in the box.
to the death of fun

Offline bjmacke

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Re: Leaving the box during lineup, minor or major Illegal Procedure?
« Reply #5 on: October 10, 2011, 03:39:45 am »
A "slap in the face" makes it sound personal, and I have a hard time seeing a justifiable link. She's flouting a rule, regardless of the individual ref that made the call that put her in the box. If she left the box to tell said ref that he should suck a 20-foot dick, well, then you might have some traction on that misconduct call.
also known as Apron, if you didn't know already.

Offline J. Ref K.

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Re: Leaving the box during lineup, minor or major Illegal Procedure?
« Reply #6 on: October 10, 2011, 04:40:26 am »
I think this should be an easy one, but thought it best to confirm. If a skater leaves the penalty box to talk to her teammates during lineup and returns to the box before the jam starts, what penalties (if any) would you assess?

Although it's not technically a timeout, using the rules as a guide I think this would be a minor IP:
[rule]6.13.13  A penalized skater who leaves the penalty box during either a team or official timeout.[/rule]

however, I could see a ref arguing that since it's not specified in the minors section, it would fall under the more general major IP of:
[rule]6.13.25  A skater exiting the penalty box before her penalty time finishes. (Note: If the penalty box official instructs the skater to leave early, this penalty does not apply.)[/rule]

Anyone opposed to applying 6.13.13 in this case?

IP - Major

6.13.25 A skater exiting the penalty box before her penalty time finishes.

Not really any way around that imho, especially considering it's not a team time out or OTO (6.13.13).  The only other rule that I feel would apply is this:

9.3.5 If the referee is not sure whether an action warrants a major or a minor, it must be called as a minor.

But of course I'll be humbled to see what the certified refs on here say ;)
"Leadership and learning are indispensable to each other."  -JFK

Offline The Doc

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Re: Leaving the box during lineup, minor or major Illegal Procedure?
« Reply #7 on: October 10, 2011, 04:51:17 am »
A "slap in the face" makes it sound personal, and I have a hard time seeing a justifiable link. She's flouting a rule, regardless of the individual ref that made the call that put her in the box. If she left the box to tell said ref that he should suck a 20-foot dick, well, then you might have some traction on that misconduct call.


true story, and thats funny as H EH double hockey sticks. if a girl came up to me and told me to suck my/her 20 - ft dick, i would have to call a misconduct. but thats still funny..... my point is,.... a ref, any ref, calls, lets say...... major cut! 22! Black! and then 22 black looks at that ref and yells, "i didn't cut" and keeps skating. the skater is not obeying what you want her to so insubordination, most likely 2 mins. its the same as the skater not staying in the box. thankfully the girls i ref have respect for all refs the game and the rules, and are awesome to deal with,some Other travel teams are not so nice, (rear, but sometimes). in the league that i ref, during scrimmages i, and the other refs, will go to the box and tell the skater what they did wrong and why they got called,(we are not trainers or coaches, but we want the girls do know what happened) and if any girl has any question over anything, after a scrimmage all of our ref stick around to answer the question. (mostly no pack, and they get a major for OOP) nevertheless, true story, its not a attack on the person that i am, most dont know my real name.


thanks, you made me think
to the death of fun

Offline mick hawkins

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Re: Leaving the box during lineup, minor or major Illegal Procedure?
« Reply #8 on: October 10, 2011, 06:25:22 am »
I would go major, with an insubordination, the ref put her in the box and she did not stay. Please let me know what yall think. i do agree with the minor impact. i dont know. i have been lucky enough not to have to make this happen to me yet
Quote
true story, and thats funny as H EH double hockey sticks. if a girl came up to me and told me to suck my/her 20 - ft dick, i would have to call a misconduct. but thats still funny..... my point is,.... a ref, any ref, calls, lets say...... major cut! 22! Black! and then 22 black looks at that ref and yells, "i didn't cut" and keeps skating. the skater is not obeying what you want her to so insubordination, most likely 2 mins. its the same as the skater not staying in the box. thankfully the girls i ref have respect for all refs the game and the rules, and are awesome to deal with,some Other travel teams are not so nice, (rear, but sometimes). in the league that i ref, during scrimmages i, and the other refs, will go to the box and tell the skater what they did wrong and why they got called,(we are not trainers or coaches, but we want the girls do know what happened) and if any girl has any question over anything, after a scrimmage all of our ref stick around to answer the question. (mostly no pack, and they get a major for OOP) nevertheless, true story, its not a attack on the person that i am, most dont know my real name.

Insubordination does not apply here.

If a skater defies instruction to go to the penalty box THEN insubordination may apply.

However a skater in the box who leaves early has not defied/ignored any Referee's instruction. She has left before her time and IP penalties apply - as stated in the rules.
Sun State Roller Girls (WFTDA Apprentice League)
Brisbane, Australia

Offline Bishop

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Re: Leaving the box during lineup, minor or major Illegal Procedure?
« Reply #9 on: October 10, 2011, 03:37:37 pm »
I concurr with Noah and Mick on the IP minor.
 
« Last Edit: October 10, 2011, 04:07:18 pm by Bishop »
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Offline J. Ref K.

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Re: Leaving the box during lineup, minor or major Illegal Procedure?
« Reply #10 on: October 10, 2011, 03:55:58 pm »
I concurr with Noah and Mick on the IP minor.

Just to clarify, Bishop, there were two scenarios, so which one do you concur on the IP - minor (or both):

This--
If a skater leaves the penalty box to talk to her teammates during lineup and returns to the box before the jam starts, what penalties (if any) would you assess?

And/or this--
During a bout this past weekend, a Captain came into the centre from the penalty box, between jams, and began questioning something from the previous jam.
I responded to her question with "You're supposed to be in the penalty box"
To which she gave a really surprised "Oh, shit!" and took off back to the box.

I issued her with a minor IP.

I didn't see her action as having a major impact on the game; it's not like she joined a jam in progress.

I think this was the correct call based on the situation, but will happily be corrected.

I understand ref discretion on the second scenario to make it a minor, but the first one appears to be a relatively simple IP-Major (6.13.25)

Just want to be sure I'm calling things correctly, too. :)
"Leadership and learning are indispensable to each other."  -JFK

Offline Bishop

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Re: Leaving the box during lineup, minor or major Illegal Procedure?
« Reply #11 on: October 10, 2011, 04:08:00 pm »

The intent of 6.13.25 is to penalize skaters who have left the penalty box during play before they have been officially released.  It's not meant to be a "dead ball" foul.

If anything, this situation speaks to need for the penalty box NSOs and the pack referees (especially the OPRs) to be vigilant between jams.  Ideally, the skater wouldn't have made it over to her bench (or in Mick's situation, to the infield) before a referee intercepted her and directed her back to the penalty box. 

FWIW - Mick and Noah might not be sporting fancy patches (yet) but they both have been in the sport longer than I have.  At least, I know I pay close attention to what they have to say

Recommended Resources:WFTDA Rules Central, WFTDA officiating & Successful Sports Officiating
Propose rule changes at timeout.wftda.com.

Offline J. Ref K.

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Re: Leaving the box during lineup, minor or major Illegal Procedure?
« Reply #12 on: October 10, 2011, 04:20:55 pm »

FWIW - Mick and Noah might not be sporting fancy patches (yet) but they both have been in the sport longer than I have.  At least, I know I pay close attention to what they have to say



Yup, I have a lotta respect for them, have seen many of their posts and hope I wasn't coming across as trying discredit any of their valuable input here!  :)
"Leadership and learning are indispensable to each other."  -JFK

Offline J. Ref K.

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Re: Leaving the box during lineup, minor or major Illegal Procedure?
« Reply #13 on: October 10, 2011, 04:27:27 pm »
But of course I'll be humbled to see what the certified refs on here say ;)


Ok, rereading my post, I see how this could come across as condescending (completely not my intent).  Apologies abound!!!
"Leadership and learning are indispensable to each other."  -JFK

Offline Chemical A NaCl

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Re: Leaving the box during lineup, minor or major Illegal Procedure?
« Reply #14 on: October 10, 2011, 09:01:50 pm »
Wheels and I have been having this friendy zebra wife spat over this for the past two days so thanks to all for helping settle it.    ;)

I argue along the same lines of J-Ref-K.  Rule 6.13.13 does not apply because it is not a team or official timeout.  The only other rule that would apply in this situation is 6.13.25 since she left the box before her penalty time was over.  

While it does not have a major impact on the game we must apply the rules as they are written.  Perhaps between jams should be something that WFTDA should look into adding to section 6.13.13.

I would call it IP major assuming she made it out of the box.  Ideally, as Bishop was saying, the Penalty box team or OPR's would notice and send her back to her seat before she made it that far!
« Last Edit: October 11, 2011, 03:06:29 pm by Chemical A NaCl »

 

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