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Author Topic: Leaving the box during lineup, minor or major Illegal Procedure?  (Read 20889 times)

Offline The Doc

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Re: Leaving the box during lineup, minor or major Illegal Procedure?
« Reply #15 on: October 11, 2011, 04:28:00 am »

I would call it IP major assuming she made it out of the box.  Ideally, as Bishop was saying, the Penalty box team or OPR's would notice and send her back to her seat before she made it that far!

so, if a skater has 0:28 left in the box, jam ends, she (the skater in the box) leaves the box, refs give her a Major IP, does she know have 1:28 left in the box. that sound right to me but im not sure
to the death of fun

Offline Interrobang Yerdehd

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Re: Leaving the box during lineup, minor or major Illegal Procedure?
« Reply #16 on: October 11, 2011, 04:41:00 am »
Yes, her 28 remaining seconds plus a minute for the major.
I will have to accept full blame for what I tell you, since none of you are wearing
Mickey Mouse hats and trying to climb up on me under the impression that I am
part of the rigging of a pirate ship.

Offline mick hawkins

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Re: Leaving the box during lineup, minor or major Illegal Procedure?
« Reply #17 on: October 11, 2011, 05:21:03 am »

I would call it IP major assuming she made it out of the box.  Ideally, as Bishop was saying, the Penalty box team or OPR's would notice and send her back to her seat before she made it that far!

so, if a skater has 0:28 left in the box, jam ends, she (the skater in the box) leaves the box, refs give her a Major IP, does she know have 1:28 left in the box. that sound right to me but im not sure

I think theres enough consenus here to say that the Refs should not award a major for this - only a minor.
Unless the minor ends up being her 4th, she still has 0:28 to serve.
Sun State Roller Girls (WFTDA Apprentice League)
Brisbane, Australia

Offline Interrobang Yerdehd

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Re: Leaving the box during lineup, minor or major Illegal Procedure?
« Reply #18 on: October 11, 2011, 05:33:40 am »
Sorry, tiredness is making me excessively terse; what Mick said is absolutely true. If, however, the referees do award the skater in The Doc's scenario a major, she should serve 1:28.
I will have to accept full blame for what I tell you, since none of you are wearing
Mickey Mouse hats and trying to climb up on me under the impression that I am
part of the rigging of a pirate ship.

Offline Celtic Raider

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Re: Leaving the box during lineup, minor or major Illegal Procedure?
« Reply #19 on: October 11, 2011, 06:01:09 am »
Question on this then.  Skater (also Captain) is in the box.  OTO is called and Captains and Alternates are brought into the middle.  Skater knows she was sent to the box on a bogus call and will be released from the box so she comes into the box.  Would you allow it or tell her to go back to the box until the official correction is made?

When it happened to me, I made her go back to the box because she hadn't been officially released, even though she knew it was coming.

EDIT: I also didn't give her any penalties for leaving the box?

Offline bjmacke

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Re: Leaving the box during lineup, minor or major Illegal Procedure?
« Reply #20 on: October 11, 2011, 06:51:59 am »
That was very kind of you, but she still committed an IP for leaving the box before the ruling was overturned.

The rule is pretty clear that captains aren't allowed to leave the box or call timeouts from the box. That's why alternates exist.
also known as Apron, if you didn't know already.

Offline Interrobang Yerdehd

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Re: Leaving the box during lineup, minor or major Illegal Procedure?
« Reply #21 on: October 11, 2011, 02:34:02 pm »
In my experience, skaters "know" that a lot of calls are bogus. ::)
I will have to accept full blame for what I tell you, since none of you are wearing
Mickey Mouse hats and trying to climb up on me under the impression that I am
part of the rigging of a pirate ship.

Offline Celtic Raider

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Re: Leaving the box during lineup, minor or major Illegal Procedure?
« Reply #22 on: October 11, 2011, 03:55:18 pm »
In my experience, skaters "know" that a lot of calls are bogus. ::)

No she knew that it was bogus, I even told her so before I could "officially" release her.  I can't remember specifically why it was not a good call but everyone pretty much knew it.

But I have had other players make a fuss about EVERY call made against them and their team at times.

Offline Darkjester

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Re: Leaving the box during lineup, minor or major Illegal Procedure?
« Reply #23 on: October 11, 2011, 04:06:43 pm »
IMO the language is very clear that if the skater leaves during a Team Time Out or Official Time Out, its a minor.   

The language elsewhere is also very clear that if she leaves the penalty box early, its a Major. 

If a skater left during the 30 seconds in between jams to run to her line up and talk with them briefly, I'd issue the Major.

However, in Celtic's case I would not issue it, especially because he informed her that the call was a bad call before he could "Officially" release her. She could have assumed thats what he was doing was releasing her.

I'd be careful on the usage of the word "Bogus" call, in my opinion it creates a different connotation than 'bad call'.

The difference a bogus call is made up.
A Bad call an action occurs and the Official makes the wrong call.
Madness Tolls
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Offline Interrobang Yerdehd

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Re: Leaving the box during lineup, minor or major Illegal Procedure?
« Reply #24 on: October 11, 2011, 04:16:44 pm »
In the specific situation where you have told the skater that the call will be overturned, I agree with not issuing a penalty due to the potential misunderstanding Dj mentions. However, I don't think it's a good idea to tell skaters that calls aren't good until an official review has actually been asked for.
I will have to accept full blame for what I tell you, since none of you are wearing
Mickey Mouse hats and trying to climb up on me under the impression that I am
part of the rigging of a pirate ship.

Offline Celtic Raider

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Re: Leaving the box during lineup, minor or major Illegal Procedure?
« Reply #25 on: October 11, 2011, 07:39:50 pm »
It was the A who told me of the bad call from another ref if I'm remembering correctly.  She overheard me agree with him and came out when I called the other team over to tell them why she was being released.  After the game her and I chatted about it and I told her that if someone else had likely been HR she would have been dinged and in the future she shouldn't come out until she's officially told too.  It was a heat of the moment thing but glad that there is agreement that she shouldn't have been dinged.  I just wanted to make sure the due process was followed.  Thanks for the backup Bang and DJ.

Offline The Gorram Reaver

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Re: Leaving the box during lineup, minor or major Illegal Procedure?
« Reply #26 on: October 11, 2011, 09:14:55 pm »
However, I don't think it's a good idea to tell skaters that calls aren't good until an official review has actually been asked for.

+1

Following proper procedure allows us to uphold the integrity of the entire crew.  By telling a skater "off the record" that you're going to be overturning a call as "bogus" before the proper channels have been followed you are undermining the confidence in and authority of other members of your crew.  This is a very poor trait in a Head Ref, and one that would make me not want to ref on that particular individual's crew.
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Offline Darkjester

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Re: Leaving the box during lineup, minor or major Illegal Procedure?
« Reply #27 on: October 11, 2011, 10:51:36 pm »
If I'm HR'ing a bout I *might* overturn a call only if I am 10000000% certain that it was an incorrect call and try to do it before it gets reported or the skater goes to the box. I've only done it a very small amount of time and one of those was because it was a Jammer back blocked a member of her OWN team trying to move her out of the way. The overzealous pack ref called the Major on the jammer and I repeated "SAME TEAM!" and motioned her back onto the track and explained it afterwards.

I've also been an OPR when there was a scoring discrepency called out by the fans who were yelling for me to fix the score.  That is something that the teams have to handle as I was not the Jam ref, for all I know the score could have been correct.
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Offline J. Ref K.

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Re: Leaving the box during lineup, minor or major Illegal Procedure?
« Reply #28 on: October 12, 2011, 01:01:30 am »
The language elsewhere is also very clear that if she leaves the penalty box early, its a Major. 

If a skater left during the 30 seconds in between jams to run to her line up and talk with them briefly, I'd issue the Major.

This is what my opinion (and Chemical A NaCl) is, however Bishop wrote:


The intent of 6.13.25 is to penalize skaters who have left the penalty box during play before they have been officially released.  It's not meant to be a "dead ball" foul.

So, since I have no corporate knowledge of the "intent" of the rules, I also have been applying them as they are written.  :)
"Leadership and learning are indispensable to each other."  -JFK

Offline Bishop

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Re: Leaving the box during lineup, minor or major Illegal Procedure?
« Reply #29 on: October 12, 2011, 02:57:49 am »
The language elsewhere is also very clear that if she leaves the penalty box early, its a Major. 

If a skater left during the 30 seconds in between jams to run to her line up and talk with them briefly, I'd issue the Major.

This is what my opinion (and Chemical A NaCl) is, however Bishop wrote:


The intent of 6.13.25 is to penalize skaters who have left the penalty box during play before they have been officially released.  It's not meant to be a "dead ball" foul.

So, since I have no corporate knowledge of the "intent" of the rules, I also have been applying them as they are written.  :)

Well, I wouldn't consider my thoughts corporate knowledge.  Stego won't even show me the secret handshake yet.  In fact, she has the audacity to insist that there *isn't* one. 

Anyway, what I'm doing is more like of an inductive study of the rule set.  Contrast and compare the specific examples of minor penalties given in the rule set (6.13.13, 6.13.14 and 6.13.15) to examples in the major penalty section (6.13.25 and 6.13.27).  What's similar between those penalties?  What's different?  What matters?  When in doubt downgrade as directed under 9.3 so that you don't overcall the game. 

The problem with applying a strict rule book based ruling here (i.e. 6.13.25 to either situation presented in this thread) is that it doesn't consider the context of the scenario.  Considering both situations in the broader context of the rules and my tacit cultural knowledge of the game all lead me to conclude a minor should be issued.
 
« Last Edit: October 12, 2011, 03:01:58 am by Bishop »
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