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Author Topic: New jammer "strategy"  (Read 20313 times)

Offline tart n terror

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Re: New jammer "strategy"
« Reply #15 on: October 12, 2011, 10:20:01 pm »
Hey all,

Just wanted to put another angle on this - our league has just received the same coaching.  I have to say that the "new strategy" discussed above was only a very small part of a bigger class.  It wasnt taught as "put your face in her crotch" - it was taught as part of a "get more assertive with your abilities" class.
Its about being comfortable with the thought of being hit and mentally faster at recovering from it - its about the psychological advantage of throwing someone off their game by making them uncomfortable with your body placemement in a pre-jam situation.
You must of all seen it before when blockers and jammers line up and jostle for advantage - this is not any different from that.  Its just exploring new avenues to give you an advantage.  If the other jammer was uncomfortable with the pre-jam position - it obviously worked.
The move she taught us was to position yourself low and infront of the other skater without touching so you have the advantage.  Your head just happened to be in front of the hip area - not square in her crotch area.  Your always going to have skaters who will demonstrate her own take on it.  Its not intentional douche-baggery - its just derby.
I have to agree with Shawn - its not for anyone to govern any sportsmanlike ability unless its in the rules.
I personally wouldnt want to get my head close enough to sniff what soap they have been using down there - but I sure as hell will position my body in their personal space to psych them out on the line.  If they are uncomfortable with me in their personal space, then I have set out to do what I intended.

Tart 'n' Terror

Offline mick hawkins

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Re: New jammer "strategy"
« Reply #16 on: October 13, 2011, 01:07:32 am »
I have to agree with Shawn - its not for anyone to govern any sportsmanlike ability unless its in the rules.

I don't agree. As has already been mentioned there's definately a limit to what should be overlooked...
http://www.zebrahuddle.com/index.php?topic=918.0
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Brisbane, Australia

Offline tart n terror

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Re: New jammer "strategy"
« Reply #17 on: October 13, 2011, 01:44:21 am »
Ok,

After reading that thread, I stand corrected.  I can see where your coming from on the innaproproate touching, but I still stand by statement that everyone takes tuition and coaching and make the concept her his or her own.
The concept being taught was being more aggresive and assertive in your play, but its up to the individual how she interprets that and integrates it into her actions on the track.

Yes, getting your face in someones crotch - close enough to sniff so to speak is inapropriate - the leaning forward and low is a valid tactic and should be taken as such.

Maybe a word with her and her captain would be enough to sort it out and clear boundaries as to the extent of the acceptable closeness for future games can be established.

Thanks Mick.

Tart 'n' Terror

Offline Darkjester

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Re: New jammer "strategy"
« Reply #18 on: October 13, 2011, 04:51:08 am »
My line as an Official is drawn at physical contact.

Simply lining up in a manner to which  a skater is suggestively posing, even if they are within someones personal space isn't a 'no no'.  Its like two siblings pulling the "I'm not touching you... I'm not touching you" game.

However, once one of my two kids DOES touch someone (especially if its in a 'no no ' place) then my job is to step in either as a parent, or in the above situation as an Official.

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Offline ChrisSteel Balls

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Re: New jammer "strategy"
« Reply #19 on: October 13, 2011, 05:41:00 am »
My line as an Official is drawn at physical contact.


But the trouble with this line is, as it has already been clarified, not all blocking involves physical contact.
This approach also ignores the possibility for Misconduct based on gestures (6.15.6 - 6.15.7)
The WFTDA rules also allow room for expulsion: "Expulsions will be issued for a conscious attempt to block an opponent in an egregious manner while out of play, whether or not the action was
successful.
" [emphasis added]

So I would say it is still the responsibility of the Refs to assess impact  (although clearly that could get too subjective, thus i understand why you'd want to take a line stance on it)
« Last Edit: October 13, 2011, 05:42:38 am by ChrisSteel Balls »

Offline mick hawkins

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Re: New jammer "strategy"
« Reply #20 on: October 13, 2011, 06:12:45 am »
My line as an Official is drawn at physical contact.

Why?

There are many different penalties that are issued when there's no contact.
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Offline Darkjester

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Re: New jammer "strategy"
« Reply #21 on: October 13, 2011, 08:20:03 pm »
Because here we aren't talking about illegal blocking during game play, but inappropriate touching.

If a skater verbally tells me "I'm going to hit this chick in the head"  I can't penalize her.  If she throws a punch at the skaters head, THEN I can eject her.
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Offline Interrobang Yerdehd

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Re: New jammer "strategy"
« Reply #22 on: October 13, 2011, 08:50:18 pm »
There are two issues here.

First are the rules of derby. Ignoring concerns of legality (as in the actual government laws of whatever country we're in), I don't think a case can be made for anything more than a warning issued to both teams and a misconduct for all subsequent offenses (excessive obscene gestures directed at another skater).

Then there's the legal issue of harassment/assault/whatever, which is above our paygrade. Even if one of us is a lawyer, I doubt that person is qualified to speak on the laws of all the (growing number of) countries containing WFTDA leagues.
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Offline Auntie Bellum

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Re: New jammer "strategy"
« Reply #23 on: October 13, 2011, 09:20:05 pm »
Then there's the legal issue of harassment/assault/whatever, which is above our paygrade. Even if one of us is a lawyer, I doubt that person is qualified to speak on the laws of all the (growing number of) countries containing WFTDA leagues.

At least under US tort law there is always a strong assumption of the risk argument when a sport is being played according to the rules, so these two issues might not be as distinct as one would expect, at least in the US.

Offline mick hawkins

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Re: New jammer "strategy"
« Reply #24 on: October 13, 2011, 11:27:49 pm »
Because here we aren't talking about illegal blocking during game play, but inappropriate touching.

If a skater verbally tells me "I'm going to hit this chick in the head"  I can't penalize her.  If she throws a punch at the skaters head, THEN I can eject her.


When I asked this question, touching had nothing to do with it.
It's about behaviour that some may consider offensive and/or poor sportspersonship

(that's a word, right?)
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Offline Refugee

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Re: New jammer "strategy"
« Reply #25 on: October 14, 2011, 05:16:36 pm »
Not entirely off point:  Mooning is deemed to be constitutionally protected free speach in Maryland & not indecent in California (unless proved to be entirely sexually motivated beyond a reasonable doubt).

Violation of 6.15?
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Offline Darkjester

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Re: New jammer "strategy"
« Reply #26 on: October 14, 2011, 07:33:16 pm »
Because here we aren't talking about illegal blocking during game play, but inappropriate touching.

If a skater verbally tells me "I'm going to hit this chick in the head"  I can't penalize her.  If she throws a punch at the skaters head, THEN I can eject her.


When I asked this question, touching had nothing to do with it.
It's about behaviour that some may consider offensive and/or poor sportspersonship

(that's a word, right?)

Sportsmanship (even though I think personship would be a better alternative)..

But, the action in question was a playing putting their face in an opponents crotch. 
Somewhere you have to draw the line on what is considered misconduct (non-capitalized so as to describe the action not the Penalty);

I doubt a criminal OR civil court in most countries would action a person who place their face 'near' someones groin as sexual assault/sexual misconduct.   

However, if the person DID place their face IN the crotch of the victim, it would be actioned.

Hence my reasoning that 'touching' had to occur for me to penalize it, specifically since I am not penalizing a block (in which positional is still a block) but actual misconduct.
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Offline Auntie Bellum

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Re: New jammer "strategy"
« Reply #27 on: October 14, 2011, 08:12:07 pm »

I doubt a criminal OR civil court in most countries would action a person who place their face 'near' someones groin as sexual assault/sexual misconduct.   

However, if the person DID place their face IN the crotch of the victim, it would be actioned.

Hence my reasoning that 'touching' had to occur for me to penalize it, specifically since I am not penalizing a block (in which positional is still a block) but actual misconduct.

There is an actual impact rule (with a few exceptions) for negligent infliction of emotional distress in Florida, however that is not the case in all states.  It would probably be a very reasonable action for intentional infliction of emotional distress in California as you can see from this jury instruction http://www.justia.com/trials-litigation/docs/caci/1600/1600.html

Offline Shaun Ketterman

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Re: New jammer "strategy"
« Reply #28 on: October 14, 2011, 09:36:20 pm »
However, if the person DID place their face IN the crotch of the victim, it would be actioned.

Hence my reasoning that 'touching' had to occur for me to penalize it, specifically since I am not penalizing a block (in which positional is still a block) but actual misconduct.

[rule]6.6.4 Initiating a block with the head, regardless of impact or advantage.[/rule]

Sticking your face in your opponent's junk is already penalizable as a major blocking with the head without having to stretch a misconduct to fit.
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Offline Rocktimus Prime

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Re: New jammer "strategy"
« Reply #29 on: October 15, 2011, 03:17:01 am »
I guess I'm really confused as to what this actually looks like. So I can't really speak to that aspect of this.  That said...

I support the action of warnings to both teams, with misconduct penalties to follow for subsequent violations. Mind you, I would not enact this ruling until the captain or DA actually brings me a complaint. Otherwise, it's game play as usual.

In terms of blocking penalties, Ketterman brings an interesting point, though,as I mentioned, I would have to see an action that actually appeared to be a blocking action before handing out majors.

In terms of legality: here in Virginia, mooning someone in public is a misdemeanor, and making someone uncomfortable on a sexual level is grounds for sexual harassment charges. This holds some real weight if it happens repeatedly. Also, in Virginia, a head ref could be held liable if he/she allowed this behavior to continue, providing there was evidence that he/she was aware of it. Here, a head referee would be seen as accountable for the ensuring that players may play the game without fear of things like sexual harassment. So, if someone here wanted to make an issue out of it, it could get pretty sticky if someone has a problem, they tell you, and you don't try to do something about it. Pay is immaterial.
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