Menu

ZH Classifieds
ZH Files
ZH Staff
WFTDA 12/1/2014 Rules
WFTDA 3/1/2014 Rules

Donate

Please Support Zebra Huddle!

Recent Posts

Re: Jammer's time in penalty box by 3Beers
April 26, 2020, 09:46:33 pm

Getting officials attention by Rego_Derby
March 03, 2020, 04:05:02 am

Re: Jammer's time in penalty box by Major Wood
February 05, 2020, 05:52:31 pm

Jammer's time in penalty box by 3Beers
January 29, 2020, 03:33:20 am

Nashville Roller Derby 2020 Scrimmage-A-Thon - 7/11/2020 by Major Wood
January 27, 2020, 09:36:38 pm

Re: Rule clarification by 3Beers
January 26, 2020, 08:09:00 pm

Re: Rule clarification by Bluebeard
January 17, 2020, 05:26:46 am

Rule clarification by 3Beers
December 28, 2019, 06:04:00 pm

Re: Resources for new referees. by Destructor
November 29, 2019, 01:13:40 pm

Resources for new referees. by Destructor
November 26, 2019, 06:01:48 pm

Author Topic: SOOB 6.2.9.4 - how strict are you with issuing this penalty?  (Read 35780 times)

Offline Jessticular Fortitude

  • Referee
  • Hero Member
  • *
  • Posts: 798
  • Stats Sheet: 27
  • SOLID
  • League Affiliation: Nashville Rollergirls
  • Referee Certification Level: Level 2
  • NSO Certification Level: Not Certified
Re: SOOB 6.2.9.4 - how strict are you with issuing this penalty?
« Reply #15 on: March 25, 2009, 03:42:03 pm »
I believe I agree with him... I mean.. say one crossed the boundary... and was gaining speed while out of bounds but then realized they crossed the track boundary and therefore slowed to a near halt. I do not see how a penalty for skating out of bounds to maintain or increase speed could be justified if they were to completely negate that gain before re-entering.

Follow that logic, and you'd not give a major Cutting the Track penalty for a skater who cuts the whole pack and then falls, letting them pass her in the process. But you do.
Hey look, a search function! Right up there! No on the left

Perhaps we should all spend a little more time reading and a little less time making shit up.

Offline JoeXCore

  • Superhero Member
  • **********
  • Posts: 1022
  • Stats Sheet: 20
  • Will go anywhere to which I can afford to travel.
Re: SOOB 6.2.9.4 - how strict are you with issuing this penalty?
« Reply #16 on: March 25, 2009, 04:38:20 pm »
I believe I agree with him... I mean.. say one crossed the boundary... and was gaining speed while out of bounds but then realized they crossed the track boundary and therefore slowed to a near halt. I do not see how a penalty for skating out of bounds to maintain or increase speed could be justified if they were to completely negate that gain before re-entering.

Follow that logic, and you'd not give a major Cutting the Track penalty for a skater who cuts the whole pack and then falls, letting them pass her in the process. But you do.

Once again I must disagree.

We're referring to someone being out of bounds... skating... skating quickly... then stopping. "Skating out of bounds to build or maintain speed" In this case we're to judge intent... was she doing it to build or maintain speed? Well she stopped or slowed drastically, so obviously not. No impact.

In regards to the track cutting the rules very specifically say when to give that penalty and it has nothing to do with speed but with re-entry. The penalty for track cutting is given on re-entry, the penalty for SOOB is given when it's determined that one is out of bounds to build or maintain speed. Completely different rules with completely different standards.
Black n Bluegrass Roller Girls - head referee
MRDA Recognized Refree

Offline Riff Reff

  • Superhero Member
  • **********
  • Posts: 1001
  • Stats Sheet: 30
  • League Affiliation: Dublin Roller Derby
  • Referee Certification Level: Not Certified
  • NSO Certification Level: Not Certified
Re: SOOB 6.2.9.4 - how strict are you with issuing this penalty?
« Reply #17 on: March 25, 2009, 04:54:56 pm »
Quote
I believe I agree with him... I mean.. say one crossed the boundary... and was gaining speed while out of bounds but then realized they crossed the track boundary and therefore slowed to a near halt. I do not see how a penalty for skating out of bounds to maintain or increase speed could be justified if they were to completely negate that gain before re-entering.

I agree with that. In that situation I wouldn't give a penalty either since there's no advantage gained, BUT it could happen (depending on how long the skater skates OOB) that I issued the penalty already when the skater finally decides to slow down. e.g. she exits in turn 2 skates the whole straightaway alongside the pack maintaining speed and stops/brakes at turn 3. I wouldn't wait that long, or should I?
Don't look at the game with rules-tinted glasses; look at the rules with game-tinted glasses!

Offline Jonathan Lee

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 180
  • Stats Sheet: 22
Re: SOOB 6.2.9.4 - how strict are you with issuing this penalty?
« Reply #18 on: March 25, 2009, 07:39:19 pm »
In this case we're to judge intent...

the penalty for SOOB is given when it's determined that one is out of bounds to build or maintain speed.

No, this isn't a case where intent is inferred. If you are building or maintaining speed while out of bounds, it's a penalty.
Bay Area Derby Girls, head referee :: WFTDA Certified Referee, Level 3

Offline Darkjester

  • Has Too Much Damn Time Member
  • ********************
  • Posts: 3067
  • Stats Sheet: 39
  • "When in doubt, RTFM"
  • League Affiliation: Beach Brawl SK8R Dolls
  • Referee Certification Level: Not Certified
  • NSO Certification Level: Not Certified
Re: SOOB 6.2.9.4 - how strict are you with issuing this penalty?
« Reply #19 on: March 25, 2009, 07:56:40 pm »
I think the discrepancy here isn't "building" speed, but the maintaining of speed.

At what point do you say "Oh, she's slowing down" or "Oh, she's not trying to slow down" and issue the penalty. Its obvious if they start speeding up, not so obvious if they 'coast' to make a legal re-entry.

Madness Tolls
69¢
Beach Brawl Sk8R Dolls
Fort Walton Beach FL

Offline Cliquework

  • Superhero Member
  • **********
  • Posts: 1306
  • Stats Sheet: 55
  • EGO sum Speculum. Noxiae poena par esto.
  • League Affiliation: Demolition City Roller Derby
  • Referee Certification Level: Level 3
  • NSO Certification Level: Not Certified
Re: SOOB 6.2.9.4 - how strict are you with issuing this penalty?
« Reply #20 on: March 25, 2009, 08:16:48 pm »
I think the discrepancy here isn't "building" speed, but the maintaining of speed.

At what point do you say "Oh, she's slowing down" or "Oh, she's not trying to slow down" and issue the penalty. Its obvious if they start speeding up, not so obvious if they 'coast' to make a legal re-entry.



At that point I would have to say "coasting" is not maintaining speed. If the feet are moving while OOB........it's the skating while OOB.
Demolition City Roller Derby Head Ref
Evansville, IN
Zebra Huddle Moderator
WFTDA Refcert Checklist

Offline Jonathan Lee

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 180
  • Stats Sheet: 22
Re: SOOB 6.2.9.4 - how strict are you with issuing this penalty?
« Reply #21 on: March 25, 2009, 08:31:11 pm »
I think the discrepancy here isn't "building" speed, but the maintaining of speed.

At what point do you say "Oh, she's slowing down" or "Oh, she's not trying to slow down" and issue the penalty. Its obvious if they start speeding up, not so obvious if they 'coast' to make a legal re-entry.

Yeah, it can be tricky when everyone is going different speeds or changing speeds and it's hard to tell if the skater that is OOB is coasting/maintaining speed or slowing.

Primarily what you need to go by, though, is if their speed is increasing, staying the same or decreasing.

Visual cues like them t-stopping or taking strides can help, but aren't always accurate. You can be stepping/striding while slowing down.
Bay Area Derby Girls, head referee :: WFTDA Certified Referee, Level 3

Offline Cliquework

  • Superhero Member
  • **********
  • Posts: 1306
  • Stats Sheet: 55
  • EGO sum Speculum. Noxiae poena par esto.
  • League Affiliation: Demolition City Roller Derby
  • Referee Certification Level: Level 3
  • NSO Certification Level: Not Certified
Re: SOOB 6.2.9.4 - how strict are you with issuing this penalty?
« Reply #22 on: March 25, 2009, 08:37:19 pm »
Indeed. I did not mean to imply that you can't be moving your feet whatsoever OOB, otherwise we may have a bunch of skaters coasted to a stop on the outside, though looking back it may have sounded that way.

To your point it just needs judicious use of the rule and keen observance of the skater themselves. It may not be a penalty that can always be decided at a glance. There's definitely wiggle room in the "line".

Edit: I suppose this ties loosely into the "building up speed for a block while OOB". Judgement can come into play with these calls moreso than a simple cutting the track call or whatnot.
« Last Edit: March 25, 2009, 08:57:48 pm by Cliquework »
Demolition City Roller Derby Head Ref
Evansville, IN
Zebra Huddle Moderator
WFTDA Refcert Checklist

Offline Bishop

  • Superhero Member
  • **********
  • Posts: 1626
  • Stats Sheet: 51
  • Quoth the raven, "Nevermore."
  • League Affiliation: Unaffiliated
  • Referee Certification Level: Level 2
  • NSO Certification Level: Not Certified
Re: SOOB 6.2.9.4 - how strict are you with issuing this penalty?
« Reply #23 on: March 25, 2009, 09:19:17 pm »

Primarily what you need to go by, though, is if their speed is increasing, staying the same or decreasing.

Visual cues like them t-stopping or taking strides can help, but aren't always accurate. You can be stepping/striding while slowing down.

Thank you all for some very good points.  It sounds like this penalty is issued based more on what the skater is doing OOB (maintaining or increasing speed) than the actual distance she skated OOB.   So, my follow up question would be: Does the distance the skater skated OOB ever factor into a SOOB penalty? 
Recommended Resources:WFTDA Rules Central, WFTDA officiating & Successful Sports Officiating
Propose rule changes at timeout.wftda.com.

Offline Major Wood

  • Administrator
  • Has Too Much Damn Time Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2665
  • Stats Sheet: 77
  • League Affiliation: Nashville Rollergirls
  • Referee Certification Level: Level 5
  • NSO Certification Level: Not Certified
Re: SOOB 6.2.9.4 - how strict are you with issuing this penalty?
« Reply #24 on: March 25, 2009, 10:02:04 pm »
Along the same lines, has anyone ever issued an SOOB major? I've never seen this happen and kind of think the rule is there just in case someone breaks the unwritten douchebag rule.
Your friendly Zebra Huddle admin.

Nashville Roller Derby Head Ref
WFTDA Level 5 Certified Referee

I speak only of my opinions and interpretations.

Great Barrier Ref

  • Guest
Re: SOOB 6.2.9.4 - how strict are you with issuing this penalty?
« Reply #25 on: March 25, 2009, 10:16:43 pm »
So, my follow up question would be: Does the distance the skater skated OOB ever factor into a SOOB penalty? 

I don't know that the distance per se comes into it, but since the basic action (skating out of bounds) remains illegal, once you have exhausted the example penalties listed, it comes down to "did the action have a minor or major effect on the game". Can you think of a scenario in which the distance in and of itself caused an effect? I'm struggling.

Offline bronco

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 372
  • Stats Sheet: 9
  • rules and stripes forever!
Re: SOOB 6.2.9.4 - how strict are you with issuing this penalty?
« Reply #26 on: March 25, 2009, 10:29:57 pm »
During practice I'm pretty strict and give minors for SOOB.  The game is played on the track, with exceptions of being blocked OOB, missing blocks and equipment malfunctions.

A jammer that steps off the track effects gameplay (3.4.2.2).  Blockers that step off the track also have an effect on gameplay - especially when they have both skates OOB and remove themselves from play.

Skating OOB for no apparent reason: minor

Glancing one wheel of a skate on the rope while crossing over: ref judgement
... Ref. Bronco

Great Barrier Ref

  • Guest
Re: SOOB 6.2.9.4 - how strict are you with issuing this penalty?
« Reply #27 on: March 25, 2009, 10:35:25 pm »
Glancing one wheel of a skate on the rope while crossing over: ref judgement

That sounds like in-bounds to me.

Offline Major Wood

  • Administrator
  • Has Too Much Damn Time Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2665
  • Stats Sheet: 77
  • League Affiliation: Nashville Rollergirls
  • Referee Certification Level: Level 5
  • NSO Certification Level: Not Certified
Re: SOOB 6.2.9.4 - how strict are you with issuing this penalty?
« Reply #28 on: March 25, 2009, 10:36:45 pm »
Yes, the track boundary is considered part of the track.
Your friendly Zebra Huddle admin.

Nashville Roller Derby Head Ref
WFTDA Level 5 Certified Referee

I speak only of my opinions and interpretations.

Offline Bishop

  • Superhero Member
  • **********
  • Posts: 1626
  • Stats Sheet: 51
  • Quoth the raven, "Nevermore."
  • League Affiliation: Unaffiliated
  • Referee Certification Level: Level 2
  • NSO Certification Level: Not Certified
Re: SOOB 6.2.9.4 - how strict are you with issuing this penalty?
« Reply #29 on: March 25, 2009, 10:41:58 pm »
During practice I'm pretty strict and give minors for SOOB.  The game is played on the track, with exceptions of being blocked OOB, missing blocks and equipment malfunctions.


The rules do say that:

6.2.9 SKATING OUT-OF-BOUNDS
Skaters must remain in-bounds. No part of the skater's skate(s) may touch the ground outside the track boundary.


And the only "No Impact/No Penalty" exceptions listed in that section are:


6.2.9.1 Being forced out-of-bounds by an opponent's block.
6.2.9.2 Skating out-of-bounds as the result of a missed or successful block. (Blocking out-of-bounds criteria still apply; see Section 6.2.4)



My thing is that I don't want to micromanage the game.  However, I want to be a good ref.  Finding the balance between the two is something I struggle with.

Recommended Resources:WFTDA Rules Central, WFTDA officiating & Successful Sports Officiating
Propose rule changes at timeout.wftda.com.

 

Featured Product

 

Zebra Huddle Head Referee Bout Booklet

 

Featured Classifieds


ZH Files

How to Score a Point in Roller Derby
Rating: *****
Downloads: 4410
Views: 7369
Filesize: 327.61KB
Date: January 17, 2017, 04:21:03 am
Comments (0)
By: AdamSmasher
June 2013 Ruleset situational questions
Rating: *****
Downloads: 2918
Views: 5993
Filesize: 29.71KB
Date: February 07, 2014, 04:57:32 pm
Comments (2)
By: Crash Test Ref
Rules Q&A and Publications for 6/15/13 Document
Rating: (None)
Downloads: 3119
Views: 6886
Filesize: 26.27KB
Date: August 02, 2013, 04:10:40 pm
Comments (0)
By: Shaun Ketterman
Rules Q&A and Publications for 1/1/13 Document (4/24/13 Updates)
Rating: *****
Downloads: 3943
Views: 8917
Filesize: 28.07KB
Date: April 25, 2013, 05:45:34 pm
Comments (0)
By: Shaun Ketterman

Powered by EzPortal