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Author Topic: SOOB 6.2.9.4 - how strict are you with issuing this penalty?  (Read 35779 times)

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Re: SOOB 6.2.9.4 - how strict are you with issuing this penalty?
« Reply #30 on: March 25, 2009, 10:48:09 pm »
The rules do say that:

6.2.9 SKATING OUT-OF-BOUNDS
Skaters must remain in-bounds. No part of the skater's skate(s) may touch the ground outside the track boundary.


And the only "No Impact/No Penalty" exceptions listed in that section are:


6.2.9.1 Being forced out-of-bounds by an opponent's block.
6.2.9.2 Skating out-of-bounds as the result of a missed or successful block. (Blocking out-of-bounds criteria still apply; see Section 6.2.4)



My thing is that I don't want to micromanage the game.  However, I want to be a good ref.  Finding the balance between the two is something I struggle with.

Something you should fall back on for guidance is that the listed penalties are examples only, and that a general guiding principle of our penalties is "what kind of impact did this have on the game", and no impact tends to mean no penalty.

Offline Johnny Zebra

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Re: SOOB 6.2.9.4 - how strict are you with issuing this penalty?
« Reply #31 on: March 26, 2009, 03:18:05 pm »
Along the same lines, has anyone ever issued an SOOB major? I've never seen this happen and kind of think the rule is there just in case someone breaks the unwritten douchebag rule.


Institutional memory time!

There used to be a question about whether SOOB could ever be a major. Scenarios posed were along the lines of: skater jumps out of bounds to avoid a block, and blocker ends up in the audience . . . should that be a major? It was ultimately decided  that no, SOOB shouldn't be a major.

BUT that opened up a big ol' loophole where technically, one could skate OOB across the infield, not cutting anybody, and only receive a minor. So 6.2.9.5 was added to pre-empt that.

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Offline Riff Reff

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Re: SOOB 6.2.9.4 - how strict are you with issuing this penalty?
« Reply #32 on: March 26, 2009, 03:38:57 pm »
what if a skater skates a whole lap or more on the outside (maintaining speed) maybe waiting for the right moment to come in and engage the jammer but avoiding to be engaged before? Still a minor?
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Re: SOOB 6.2.9.4 - how strict are you with issuing this penalty?
« Reply #33 on: March 26, 2009, 03:43:50 pm »
I would say yes, still a minor. She isn't creating a large impact and isn't significantly shortening her distance around the track.
If this were to happen though, would the whole thing be considered one action and therefore one penalty? Is there a certain point where it would warrant an additional penalty?
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Offline Bob Dunn

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Re: SOOB 6.2.9.4 - how strict are you with issuing this penalty?
« Reply #34 on: March 26, 2009, 09:40:38 pm »
But by skating out of bounds for all that time, wouldn't she also be failing to rejoin the pack and subject to OOP minors for that?

Offline Bishop

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Re: SOOB 6.2.9.4 - how strict are you with issuing this penalty?
« Reply #35 on: March 26, 2009, 09:57:21 pm »
But by skating out of bounds for all that time, wouldn't she also be failing to rejoin the pack and subject to OOP minors for that?

That's what I was wondering.  I'd be inclined to give her a minor, let her have a reasonable chance to rejoin, issue another minor if she doesn't while informing her verbally of a subsequent insubordination major, give her more time to get in-bounds, issue an insubordination major after that. 

The way I read SOOB section (below) is that skaters really should stay or get in-bounds ASAP - not create a circus scenario.  I suppose the skater is probably only hurtung herself by remaing OOB (at least on the outside of the track.)  Can anyone think of a scenario where it would be advantageous for the skater to stay out of bounds?  How about if she's on the interior of the track but isn't cutting the track?

6.2.9 SKATING OUT-OF-BOUNDS
Skaters must remain in-bounds. No part of the skater's skate(s) may touch the ground outside the track boundary.
No Impact/No Penalty
6.2.9.1 Being forced out-of-bounds by an opponent's block.
6.2.9.2 Skating out-of-bounds as the result of a missed or successful block. (Blocking out-of-bounds criteria still apply; see Section 6.2.4.)
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Great Barrier Ref

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Re: SOOB 6.2.9.4 - how strict are you with issuing this penalty?
« Reply #36 on: March 26, 2009, 10:09:18 pm »
Quote from: King Kong Dunndy
But by skating out of bounds for all that time, wouldn't she also be failing to rejoin the pack and subject to OOP minors for that?

The "failing to rejoin after a warning" penalty is for skating 20' from the pack, not for being OOP or OOB.

6.2.11.5 Intentionally skating more than 20' from the pack after being warned.


That's what I was wondering.  I'd be inclined to give her a minor, let her have a reasonable chance to rejoin, issue another minor if she doesn't while informing her verbally of a subsequent insubordination major, give her more time to get in-bounds, issue an insubordination major after that. 

Hold up. I don't think you can call insubordination penalties like that. As per 6.2.11.5, the penalty for skating 20' after a warning is an OOP penalty, based on game impact. You can't tell somebody not to do something that is already against the rules then escalate it to an insubordination just because you said it.

Offline Bishop

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Re: SOOB 6.2.9.4 - how strict are you with issuing this penalty?
« Reply #37 on: March 26, 2009, 10:17:19 pm »
Hold up. I don't think you can call insubordination penalties like that. As per 6.2.11.5, the penalty for skating 20' after a warning is an OOP penalty, based on game impact.

She isn't necessarily skating 20' from the pack.  She could skate along the inside of the track (but not cutting) and then join when she sees fit.  She may indeed be within 20' of the pack the entire time.   Besides, what if we're talking about a Jammer?  That OOP penalty wouldn't even apply. 

You can't tell somebody not to do something that is already against the rules then escalate it to an insubordination just because you said it.

Isn't that the definition of insubordination?  If not, what is and when would you issue an insubordination penalty?

 
« Last Edit: March 26, 2009, 10:21:31 pm by Bishop »
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Offline Stegoscorus

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Re: SOOB 6.2.9.4 - how strict are you with issuing this penalty?
« Reply #38 on: March 26, 2009, 10:38:13 pm »

Isn't that the definition of insubordination?  If not, what is and when would you issue an insubordination penalty?


Not exactly.  What you described earlier should to more like this: you issue a minor, she doesn't correct her position, so you upgrade it to a major version of the same penalty.  Like, you assess a minor IP for a false start, she doesn't yield, so you make it a major IP (and only report the major, by the way; the minor "goes away").  Or you assess a minor Out of Play for being out of the Engagement Zone, she doesn't rejoin the Engagement Zone and instead speeds up, so you upgrade it to a major Out of Play. 

Insubordination is more like: you direct a skater off the track and to the box, and she is clearly refusing to go.  Or you issue a major and the skater swears and gestures rudely at you. 
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Great Barrier Ref

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Re: SOOB 6.2.9.4 - how strict are you with issuing this penalty?
« Reply #39 on: March 26, 2009, 10:43:00 pm »
Hold up. I don't think you can call insubordination penalties like that. As per 6.2.11.5, the penalty for skating 20' after a warning is an OOP penalty, based on game impact.

That OOP penalty wouldn't even apply. 

I know, I was including it for reference since it's the closest rule. But if you choose to interpret the rules such that there is a similar warning-penalty requirement for OOB (I don't), the penalty would be an OOB penalty. Under your interpretation, the penalty would be Insubordination for either.

You can't tell somebody not to do something that is already against the rules then escalate it to an insubordination just because you said it.

Isn't that the definition of insubordination?  If not, what is and when would you issue an insubordination penalty?


Insubordination is things like failing to leave the track for the box or bench, mouthing off to refs, that sort of thing.

We're allowed* to issue warnings in lieu of penalties (8.3.1), but the next step after that is to issue the correct penalty. If you warn a skater for throwing an elbow (and I'm not sure why you would), and she does it again, she gets an Elbow penalty, not an insubordination penalty.

*The only place a warning is specifically encouraged in the rules is for skating 20' from the pack, and I believe that is a consideration for the skaters because the refs are the arbiters of where the pack is.

This bit probably needs to be split off somewhere.

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Re: SOOB 6.2.9.4 - how strict are you with issuing this penalty?
« Reply #40 on: March 27, 2009, 03:59:19 am »
Insubordination is refusing to do what you are instructed to.

Plain and simple.


As for the "skating around the track in perpetuity" You are OOP if you are out of bounds.  So yes, you can be directed to Re-Join the pack.

4.3.2 In Play/Out of Play: When a Blocker is positioned more than 20 feet outside the pack or out-of-bounds, she is out of play and subject to penalties specified in Section 6.2.11.
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Offline Bob Dunn

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Re: SOOB 6.2.9.4 - how strict are you with issuing this penalty?
« Reply #41 on: March 27, 2009, 04:12:32 am »
As for the "skating around the track in perpetuity" You are OOP if you are out of bounds.  So yes, you can be directed to Re-Join the pack.

4.3.2 In Play/Out of Play: When a Blocker is positioned more than 20 feet outside the pack or out-of-bounds, she is out of play and subject to penalties specified in Section 6.2.11.

That's how I interpreted it, of course there's no mention of warning skaters to rejoin the pack if they intentionally skate out of bounds to maintain speed.

Offline Jonathan Lee

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Re: SOOB 6.2.9.4 - how strict are you with issuing this penalty?
« Reply #42 on: March 27, 2009, 07:44:00 am »
Not exactly.  What you described earlier should to more like this: you issue a minor, she doesn't correct her position, so you upgrade it to a major version of the same penalty.  Like, you assess a minor IP for a false start, she doesn't yield, so you make it a major IP (and only report the major, by the way; the minor "goes away").  Or you assess a minor Out of Play for being out of the Engagement Zone, she doesn't rejoin the Engagement Zone and instead speeds up, so you upgrade it to a major Out of Play.

Insubordination is more like: you direct a skater off the track and to the box, and she is clearly refusing to go.  Or you issue a major and the skater swears and gestures rudely at you. 

+1

As for the "skating around the track in perpetuity" You are OOP if you are out of bounds.  So yes, you can be directed to Re-Join the pack.

No.You do not tell an out of bounds player to get back in bounds. You actually never direct skaters to do anything other than go to the penalty box. You don't tell them to reform a pack, you don't tell them to get back inbounds, you don't tell them to rejoin the pack. You only make warnings/the appropriate hand signals and enforce penalties based on their actions.

The quote from the glossary is the general explanation of OOB. The actual OOB section lists actions that are penalties.

Quote
6.2.11.5 Intentionally skating more than 20' from the pack after being warned. A penalty should be applied to each offending Blocker.

Nothing about warning skaters who are out of bounds.


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Offline Stegoscorus

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Re: SOOB 6.2.9.4 - how strict are you with issuing this penalty?
« Reply #43 on: March 27, 2009, 08:04:19 am »

As for the "skating around the track in perpetuity" You are OOP if you are out of bounds.  So yes, you can be directed to Re-Join the pack.

No.You do not tell an out of bounds player to get back in bounds. You actually never direct skaters to do anything other than go to the penalty box. You don't tell them to reform a pack, you don't tell them to get back inbounds, you don't tell them to rejoin the pack. You only make warnings/the appropriate hand signals and enforce penalties based on their actions.

+1 back atcha (and emphasis mine). 

It seems this is a point that can't be over-stated.

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Re: SOOB 6.2.9.4 - how strict are you with issuing this penalty?
« Reply #44 on: March 27, 2009, 04:48:39 pm »
Sorry was a bit tired from work when I posted that.

I didn't 'literally' and vocally mean to tell them to rejoin the pack. I meant to offer the handsignal, if they refuse to join the 'play' at that time, issue a penalty.

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