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Author Topic: Lineup Tracker--too many players  (Read 6573 times)

Offline Patsy Grind

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Lineup Tracker--too many players
« on: January 30, 2012, 05:04:49 pm »
We ran into a problem where too many players lined up on the track (4 blockers on the track and 1 in the penalty box) and the referees missed it. The only one who realized was the lineup tracker.

Problem was that in the next jam, the same thing happened again. Should the lineup tracker notify the Head ref when there are too many players on the track? When should they do this?

Thanks for your advice!
Patsy Grind

Offline Two Bit Score

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Re: Lineup Tracker--too many players
« Reply #1 on: January 30, 2012, 05:40:45 pm »
We ran into a problem where too many players lined up on the track (4 blockers on the track and 1 in the penalty box) and the referees missed it. The only one who realized was the lineup tracker.

Problem was that in the next jam, the same thing happened again. Should the lineup tracker notify the Head ref when there are too many players on the track? When should they do this?

Thanks for your advice!
Patsy Grind
Any ref can deal with too many players on the track, but you probably want it to be a pack or OPR (if the line up tracker is stationed outside).  Never tell the teams. That's coaching.  Since too many players is a penalty, you give the team an unfair advantage when you tell them or tip them off before the jam start. 
The refs should catch it, if they don't, let them know after the jam starts.  Letting them know subtly is better than obviously.  Letting them know period is better than not letting them know at all.

If they are constantly not catching it, as a ref, I would want to be subtly told before the jam started. I would hope I'd never not catch it repeatably though. Just my opinion on the last part here.

Or maybe, if you are line up tracking from the inside, and you have a penalty wrangler, let them know discreetly before the jam starts. They should be updating the pack refs on the 3 board at the start of the jam anyway, and they can murmur a reminder. Bonus points if you saw who the last blocker to come on the track was.
Any night when I can pull up the covers and say "I am a better ref right now than I was when I woke up," is a good day.
Omnia praesumuntur legitime facta donec probetur in contrarium.

Offline ShoNuff

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Re: Lineup Tracker--too many players
« Reply #2 on: January 30, 2012, 06:56:31 pm »
In principal, the refs should catch this, but in practice there are far too many things that the refs are supposed to catch for them to actually catch them all every time.

I tell lineup trackers to try to catch an OPR's attention if there are too many skaters on the track at the 5 second warning.  At that point you aren't constantly bothering the OPRs with the amazing information that skaters are moving on and off the track during the lineup time and still have a few seconds to get the refs attention so they can make the call right on the first whistle.

I have run into a few OPRs who habitually make eye contact with the lineup trackers or penalty box staff to verify that the count of skaters on the track is correct right before the jam starts.  That way they can turn it into a quick check rather than having to perform the count themselves.

Offline HIM-roid

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Re: Lineup Tracker--too many players
« Reply #3 on: January 31, 2012, 03:14:46 am »
As on OPR, I always take a count of all skaters, especially if I am starting on the Pivot line. I simply look at the penalty box and extend a finger for each skater on the track and use my thumb for the jammer. This is a good habit to get into to help out the HR and IPR. If I am starting in turn 4, I watch as skaters enter the track and see who was the last one to enter in case there are extra skaters, I will know who to tell to return to their bench. I use to point them out while counting in my head, but some skaters/coaches caught on to this and would remove the extra skater before the whistle and it seemed like coaching so now I hold my arms to my side and count them off while looking around. No one has seem to catch on to what I am doing as they think I am stretching my hands. If the referee staff missed this, I would want the lineup tracker to notify me or a skating official in between jams so we can correct the problem. We are a TEAM and we should all help each other. Plus, we owe it to the players to keep the game fair.
HIM-roid
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Offline Patsy Grind

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Re: Lineup Tracker--too many players
« Reply #4 on: February 20, 2012, 09:11:16 pm »
Thanks for the answers. I was acting as jam timer/head NSO for the game, and didn't learn what happened until afterward it was all over. It led to a heated discussion among our refs about what should have been done and when.

Your comments all seem like common sense to me. I love the comments about how to count players as an OPR. Very useful. Thanks again for helping out a newbie!

Offline Sir John Eh Smackdonald

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Re: Lineup Tracker--too many players
« Reply #5 on: March 27, 2012, 07:25:24 pm »
Have you seen teams deliberately sending extra skaters as decoys?  Then at the last second the extras leave the track to avoid the false start.

Offline FNZebra

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Re: Lineup Tracker--too many players
« Reply #6 on: March 27, 2012, 07:47:48 pm »
Have you seen teams deliberately sending extra skaters as decoys?  Then at the last second the extras leave the track to avoid the false start.

I have seen this, but typically it was done by young leagues, against opponents who were trying to juggle their lineup to "counter" the skaters being fielded.

More experienced leagues tend to try to impose their will on the other team, and not risk picking up minor IPs as part of a "strategy". They concentrate on what they want to do, not on who the opponents are fielding.
You will bout as you practice.


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Offline beertester

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Re: Lineup Tracker--too many players
« Reply #7 on: April 02, 2012, 09:40:05 pm »
in my opinion ref's are there to ref and nso's are there to nso, it is not your job to help the referee, what next chase the ref down and tell them they have miised a cut track major

Offline A_Grue

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Re: Lineup Tracker--too many players
« Reply #8 on: April 02, 2012, 10:29:35 pm »
in my opinion ref's are there to ref and nso's are there to nso, it is not your job to help the referee, what next chase the ref down and tell them they have miised a cut track major

The NSOs are sometimes in a position to see penalties that the refs cannot.  I'm specifically thinking of the penalty box staff and IP for leaving early.  If the lineup tracker notices that there are too many skaters in play, they should *notify* a ref, so it can be called appropriately, just like the penalty box staff should *notify* a ref if a skater left the box early and needs to come back (and get an IP major).  We NSOs are here to help the refs do their jobs, and vice versa.  Treating a job as only NSO work will not make your NSOs happy, or your job any easier.
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Offline Eject You Later

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Re: Lineup Tracker--too many players
« Reply #9 on: April 02, 2012, 11:08:20 pm »
in my opinion ref's are there to ref and nso's are there to nso, it is not your job to help the referee, what next chase the ref down and tell them they have miised a cut track major

Actually, yes, it is the NSOs job to help the referees.  Penalty trackers/wranglers let the refs know about 4th minors.  Penalty box staff let the refs know when a skater hasn't returned after a wave-off, or that a skater is in the box but there is no corresponding penalty on the whiteboard.  OWBs relay penalties from the outside pack referees.

There is a whole lot of help, and communication, flowing both ways between NSOs and referees.  I'd advise losing whatever condescension that you have towards NSOs (as your post appears to portray).  NSOs are volunteers, and they are essential to the running of a bout.  Without NSOs we could not have a bout.  Have you ever stopped and checked out how many NSOs are required and compared that to how many referees are required for a sanctioned bout?  I'll give you a hint:  minimum requirements put referees at over a 2:1 disadvantage.  NSOs are very important.

That being said...

Refs and NSOs function best when they work together as a team.  We all have different roles, just as among the ref crew we have different roles.  Jammer refs focus on the jammers, pack refs on the pack.  However, even then there will be overlap.  If a pack ref sees a major penalty on a jammer, they are going to call it.  If a jammer ref sees a penalty committed by a blocker on their jammer, they are going to either call it themselves (if they can) or drop it off to an inside pack referee to call.

It is the same with NSOs.  We work as a team and we'll do a fine job together.  If we work like little fiefdoms with everyone looking out for themselves only, then we're going to have problems.

I'd recommend taking off the stripes and doing some NSO work for a change.  Understand what NSOs have to do, how to do the paperwork, and all the other tasks that they have.  It is an eye opener, and I am convinced that a referee with NSO experience makes for a better referee.  Is it essential?  Probably not.  But I think it makes you better.  If nothing else, it gives you a much greater respect for the work that NSOs do.
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Offline SeerSin

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Re: Lineup Tracker--too many players
« Reply #10 on: April 03, 2012, 05:42:09 pm »
We all have different roles, just as among the ref crew we have different roles. 

I think this is the important part, each officiating position has a specific role and place in the game. If I'm score keeping and I start trying to tell the pack refs how to do things it does more harm than good. Sure, I know how to pack ref pretty well but that's not the point. At that time I'm a score keeper and need to focus on that role. As a score keeper I might remind the jam ref about missed ghost points, out of play skaters at the end of a jam, or confirm other scoring related issues(without being overbearing or constantly bugging the jam ref). But I'm not going to try to pack ref, concern myself with the penalty box, or tell the head ref he's doing everything wrong. That's not the role of a score keeper and jumping out of that role often means you're neglecting the job in front of you.

Offline Gravity Kills

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Re: Lineup Tracker--too many players
« Reply #11 on: April 06, 2012, 10:14:22 pm »
We actually require referees to do all the NSO positions before they get to stripe up for a bout.  Gives them a better perspective as to what all of the officials do, and how to work best with them, and it vastly improves communication.  We're a team, as much as either of the ones we're tracking are, and bouts only work if we work together.
--Gravity Kills
Roc City Roller Derby

"Gravity is a harsh mistress."

Offline beertester

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Re: Lineup Tracker--too many players
« Reply #12 on: April 24, 2012, 10:11:41 pm »
in my opinion ref's are there to ref and nso's are there to nso, it is not your job to help the referee, what next chase the ref down and tell them they have miised a cut track major

Actually, yes, it is the NSOs job to help the referees.  Penalty trackers/wranglers let the refs know about 4th minors.  Penalty box staff let the refs know when a skater hasn't returned after a wave-off, or that a skater is in the box but there is no corresponding penalty on the whiteboard.  OWBs relay penalties from the outside pack referees.

There is a whole lot of help, and communication, flowing both ways between NSOs and referees.  I'd advise losing whatever condescension that you have towards NSOs (as your post appears to portray).  NSOs are volunteers, and they are essential to the running of a bout.  Without NSOs we could not have a bout.  Have you ever stopped and checked out how many NSOs are required and compared that to how many referees are required for a sanctioned bout?  I'll give you a hint:  minimum requirements put referees at over a 2:1 disadvantage.  NSOs are very important.

That being said...

Refs and NSOs function best when they work together as a team.  We all have different roles, just as among the ref crew we have different roles.  Jammer refs focus on the jammers, pack refs on the pack.  However, even then there will be overlap.  If a pack ref sees a major penalty on a jammer, they are going to call it.  If a jammer ref sees a penalty committed by a blocker on their jammer, they are going to either call it themselves (if they can) or drop it off to an inside pack referee to call.

It is the same with NSOs.  We work as a team and we'll do a fine job together.  If we work like little fiefdoms with everyone looking out for themselves only, then we're going to have problems.

I'd recommend taking off the stripes and doing some NSO work for a change.  Understand what NSOs have to do, how to do the paperwork, and all the other tasks that they have.  It is an eye opener, and I am convinced that a referee with NSO experience makes for a better referee.  Is it essential?  Probably not.  But I think it makes you better.  If nothing else, it gives you a much greater respect for the work that NSOs do.
poor choice of words, what i meant was that nso's are not there as extra referee's

 

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