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Author Topic: Cutting the Track  (Read 7980 times)

Offline Darkjester

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Cutting the Track
« on: March 30, 2009, 08:18:02 am »
Ever discuss something over and over and over again to the point you actually begin confusing yourself?

2 pivots ahead of pack. Pivot A is slightly ahead of Pivot B ( close enough to be legally blocked if B were to do so).

They round turn 1 at the apex of the corner about to go into turn 2.
Pivot A still slightly ahead, straddles the line going OOB, and then steps back in fully in front of Pivot B.

Since its the last blocker I call Major CTT.

The argument "Since she was already ahead of PivotB, she wasn't bettering her position".

My argument "Her position was OOB, therefore OOP, she bettered it coming back in , front of the last opposing blocker."

We looked up the rules ( practically stopped practice so the Asst. Coach and I could read them together, great guy still learning the ins and outs of the rules ( like we all are).

Relevent area's we looked up.

4.3 JAM FORMATION

4.3.1 Once the pack is in motion, skaters may change location as long as they stay within the pack.

4.3.2 In Play/Out of Play: When a Blocker is positioned more than 20 feet outside the pack or out-of-bounds, she is out of play and subject to penalties specified in Section 6.2.11. Emphasis mine.

6.2.10 CUTTING THE TRACK
A skater that is in-bounds need not yield the right of way to an out-of-bounds skater. Skaters that are out-of-bounds must find an entrance back into the pack that does not require in-bounds skaters to move."The skater may not return in-bounds in front of the skater who blocked her out-of-bounds," 
Since there was no actual "BlocK" though he stated a positional block could work as well.

By the end of the discussion, the Asst Coach and I agreed it was still a Cutting Major, however when he told the skater, she told him she disagreed and would read the rule for herself.

Can anyone else shed the light for me, my brain is frazzled.

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Offline Professor Murder

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Re: Cutting the Track
« Reply #1 on: March 30, 2009, 12:09:14 pm »
Fresh from th' oven:

http://rules.wftda.com/2009/03/24/cutting-around-an-out-of-play-skater/

Quote
March 24, 2009

Question:

Is it ever legal to cut around an out of play skater?
Answer:

No. A skater may not better her position by entering in front of ANY in bounds skater.  The only time a skater is not considered to have bettered her position is by cutting around a downed or out of bounds skater.
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Offline Major Wood

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Re: Cutting the Track
« Reply #2 on: March 30, 2009, 01:06:54 pm »
DJ, I would not assess a cutting the track penalty in that situation. There has to be a block in that situation (her hips were already in front) for there to be a cutting the track penalty.
However, she would still be susceptible to a SOOB penalty.
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Offline Tootie Tinwhistle

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Re: Cutting the Track
« Reply #3 on: March 30, 2009, 02:54:45 pm »
A similar situation that would result in the same no CTT call would be if a skater A was originally in front and attempted a side swipe booty block on another skater B that was behind her.  Skater A misses and winds up OOB.  She does not have to re-enter behind skater B because she was originally in front before going OOB, and thus not bettering her position.
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Offline Darkjester

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Re: Cutting the Track
« Reply #4 on: March 30, 2009, 06:34:31 pm »
Still confused as Murders post seems to contradict Major and Tootie. Which sucks for me because I can see both sides.

My main thought ( please correct if I've got it bent in my noggin) is that being Out of Bounds ( straddling the line) means you are Out of Play as well. If you are Out of Bounds and Out of Play, you must yield right of way to an In bounds/In Play Skater. So even if you 'were' in front of them prior to going out of bounds, once you go out of bounds you lose all rights to 'right of way' coming back in bounds.

Which makes my head hurt more, thinking, well "how far ahead" is enough far ahead of the next skater that you can come back in legally without waiting for her and/or the entire pack to pass you by?

This is what I get for working 0800-1530, then practicing till 9PM, heading home.. Sleeping for 3 hours, signing on.. posting.. going to work at 0230 till 11:30 and then checking responses.

Perhaps after sleeping my mind won't be so fuzzy.
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Offline Jessticular Fortitude

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Re: Cutting the Track
« Reply #5 on: March 30, 2009, 07:18:11 pm »
Still confused as Murders post seems to contradict Major and Tootie. Which sucks for me because I can see both sides.

My main thought ( please correct if I've got it bent in my noggin) is that being Out of Bounds ( straddling the line) means you are Out of Play as well. If you are Out of Bounds and Out of Play, you must yield right of way to an In bounds/In Play Skater. So even if you 'were' in front of them prior to going out of bounds, once you go out of bounds you lose all rights to 'right of way' coming back in bounds.

Which makes my head hurt more, thinking, well "how far ahead" is enough far ahead of the next skater that you can come back in legally without waiting for her and/or the entire pack to pass you by?

This is what I get for working 0800-1530, then practicing till 9PM, heading home.. Sleeping for 3 hours, signing on.. posting.. going to work at 0230 till 11:30 and then checking responses.

Perhaps after sleeping my mind won't be so fuzzy.


Yielding doesn't necessarily require every skater to pass by. If a skater is right on the line, you can't re-enter right where they are without getting an OOB blocking penalty, for instance.

Quote
6.2.4.7 A skater who is straddling the line may not engage, block, or assist because she has one foot down outside the track boundary and is out-of-bounds by definition.

This rule says a straddling player is out-of-bounds, but she isn't out of play because she is still a target who can be hit by someone who is fully in-bounds.

Does that make sense? I wouldn't think that a skater who was straddling the line ahead of another player who just goes out-of-bounds of her own accord and not because of a block has to come back in behind, well, anybody. No track cut, just possibly skating out-of-bounds penalties if she speeds up to re-enter.
Hey look, a search function! Right up there! No on the left

Perhaps we should all spend a little more time reading and a little less time making shit up.

Offline Stegoscorus

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Re: Cutting the Track
« Reply #6 on: March 30, 2009, 07:29:58 pm »
While Murder posted the link, it's not "his" post; it's a clarification from the WFTDA Rules Committee.  We are asked to consider these as good as rules.

Major and Tootie make great points, and without this clarification, I'd be conflicted too.  Fortunately, we do have that clarification, and that's how we should all be calling it. 
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Offline Jessticular Fortitude

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Re: Cutting the Track
« Reply #7 on: March 30, 2009, 07:44:39 pm »
"Out of play" doesn't really fit this situation though unless the skater went completely out of bounds or when she was 20ft+ from the pack, which wasn't stated in the original post. She can't get legally blocked if she's OOP, and she CAN get legally blocked when she's straddling.

Regardless, the original post is asking about cutting penalties on a skater who went out of bounds without a block occurring. I don't think she'd need to come in behind anybody in that case.
Hey look, a search function! Right up there! No on the left

Perhaps we should all spend a little more time reading and a little less time making shit up.

Offline Jonathan Lee

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Re: Cutting the Track
« Reply #8 on: March 30, 2009, 07:57:51 pm »
Not a cut.

Did she go out of bounds, pass someone, and then re-enter in front of them? No
Did she get blocked out of bounds by someone and re-enter in front of them? No
« Last Edit: March 30, 2009, 08:35:50 pm by HunterStompson »
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Offline Johnny Zebra

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Re: Cutting the Track
« Reply #9 on: March 30, 2009, 08:22:14 pm »
Not a cut.

Did she go out of bounds, pass someone, and then re-enter in front of them? No
Did she get blocked out of bounds by someone and re-enter in front of them? No

Hunter's is the short and sweet answer. Here's the long and overthought version that does the same:

No cut. If there were a cut in this situation, it would mean we call cuts in all situations where one skater is in front of another skater, has a skate go out, and then brings it back in without actually passing another player.

We don't do this. With the exception of being blocked OOB, the presumption of cutting track rules is that a skater was initially behind a skater, went out of bounds, and then re-entered in front of her (or, under the current rules, passed her while straddling). It does not sound like any of this happened in the scenario that DJ described, nor was there a block involved.

I think there might be some confusion regarding the scenario described and the applicability of the clarification referenced.

The clarification that Murder posted, I think, concerns cuts by this presumed definition, and what happens when a skater is ahead and OOP (or ahead and there is no pack), and another skater cuts (goes OOB behind, re-enters in front) her. I don't think that clarification applies in the scenario described. The pivot behind the skater the question was not OOP.

You could, however issue a SOOB penalty if she was maintaining her position by virtue of straddling the line.

Finally, there is not a specific definition of the cutting track action in the glossary or penalty section, only circumstances in which track may or may not be cut -- having such might help make this clearer.


~j.z.

« Last Edit: March 30, 2009, 08:53:17 pm by Johnny Zebra »
===============
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Offline Professor Murder

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Re: Cutting the Track
« Reply #10 on: March 30, 2009, 09:03:52 pm »
Yep.  Chalk another one up to me not thoroughly reading the OP's scenario.  Ahead before going out of bounds = not a cut.  No advantage gained/lost, not change in relative position.

But hey, I got two articles out for review in the past six days, so it's not like I'm slacking off by visiting other slacking off websites.  I'm doin' real person work for a change.
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Offline Darkjester

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Re: Cutting the Track
« Reply #11 on: March 30, 2009, 11:25:33 pm »
Thanks guys.. Four hours sleep and its all making sense again!

Madness Tolls
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