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Author Topic: Tracking penalties served  (Read 4931 times)

Offline ShoNuff

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Tracking penalties served
« on: March 20, 2012, 08:01:42 pm »
For the last year I've been looking for a good way to keep a useful record of all penalties served in a format that allows rapid cross-checking with the inside white board as well as rapid cross-checking with the penalty tracking sheets when a problem arises.

One of our new officials came up with this form that we tried in out in our last bout and it worked great.

http://www.zebrahuddle.com/index.php?action=downloads;cat=8

It's in the unofficial files section as penalty service tracking sheet.

The idea is that the box manager or possibly the lineup trackers, we've been talking about who is the best person to keep track of this, has a copy of the lineups in the same order as they are displayed on the IWB amd then records the jam that penalties occur.  That way you have a central total of all penalty service that you can quickly compare as a raw count to the IWB and a detailed list of when the penalties happened that you can compare to the penalty trackers when there is a discrepancy so that you can rapidly isolate when the discrepancy occured.

If there is ever a question from either team about whether or not a penalty was served, the head ref has one person to go to and no issues of flipping through timing sheets to confirm that a penalty was served.

I tried the sheet in a bout this past weekend and loved it.  Had no real trouble keeping the sheet updated and even when I was busy juggling jammers, once things were quiet, I just looked at the timing sheets to bring the centralized sheet up to date.

We had two dropped majors in the bout and by having a complete list to reference not just when that skater had penalties but also to put her in the context of other penalties happening at the same time we were able to quickly assemble what was going on in the jam when the penalty would have been called and one of the refs was immediately able to recall the penalty.  I think we ended up having to use an OTO for one of them but it lasted only a few seconds so we barely exceeded lineup time.

Looking for comments or suggestions on the sheetThe main issue Chaotic Neutral and I have been chatting about since the bout is whether the sheet should record jam when penalty service began, the norm for the penalty box sheets, or jam penalty was called, the norm for tracking sheets.

The directions written on the sheet right now mention using previous jam when a skater arrives between jams and that is part of what we are going back and forth on.  My current thought is to try to keep it in line with tracking since that is what it would be compared to most often.  Which would mean record jam when you wave someone off, previous jam when they arrive between and that sort of thing.

You'd still have the standard timing forms to confirm if something weird happened like a waved off skater never reporting as well as having them still on the box manager's whiteboard as being on wave-off so I don't think there will be confusion caused by that format.

My concern is that when you are busy and filling the sheet out from the penalty timing sheets, unless your timers run their clocks so that you can tell when someone arrived between jams, you won't always be able to tell and that could lead to inconsistant numbers on the sheet.

So we're looking for comments/suggestions/etc on this sheet and if you like it, feel free to use it.

Offline SmackTavish

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Re: Tracking penalties served
« Reply #1 on: March 21, 2012, 02:10:15 am »
I like this, and I'll share it with my PB Manager. I'm sure it would be her or one of the staff who keeps track of this. We had an inter-league bout last year where this was an issue. Seems a skater had sent herself to the box on more than one occasion, which hadn't been caught by us (still in our first year of officiating). When the PB crew counted up that the skater sat 7 times, I checked my (tracker) paperwork, and realized that she'd indeed been sitting when she wasn't supposed to be.

This would be a good way to check, too. Perhaps we'd use 2 copies of the paperwork; 1 by the trackers and 1 by the PB. The trackers would record the penalty codes and jams. When the opportunity presents itself, we'll switch the clipboards during the lineup countdown.

I'll keep thinking on this. Meanwhile, I'll pass the idea along.
--SmackTavish

Brandywine Roller Girls Head NSO

Offline Eject You Later

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Re: Tracking penalties served
« Reply #2 on: March 21, 2012, 04:37:31 am »
When I was a PB Timer at SC Regionals, I made a little chart at the bottom of my Penalty Box paperwork (idea from Texie, btw).  In that chart I copied the white board for the team I was timing for, and as skaters entered the box I entered the PB Timing information, and then in my chart I put tally marks to indicate box trips.  The jam numbers were already above on my sheet, the chart was so that I could quickly calculate how many trips the skater had made so that I could double check it against the IWB in between jams.

It worked well since once I started the stop watch I had time to go and update the chart.  I could also update it between jams if I was too busy during.

I keep hoping that the penalty tracking sheets will be updated to include some sort of grid that I hand wrote.  Having the info on 1 page instead of several is, in my opinion, nice.
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Offline Numb3r Crunch3r

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Re: Tracking penalties served
« Reply #3 on: March 21, 2012, 04:49:36 am »
I like this, and I'll share it with my PB Manager. I'm sure it would be her or one of the staff who keeps track of this. We had an inter-league bout last year where this was an issue. Seems a skater had sent herself to the box on more than one occasion, which hadn't been caught by us (still in our first year of officiating). When the PB crew counted up that the skater sat 7 times, I checked my (tracker) paperwork, and realized that she'd indeed been sitting when she wasn't supposed to be.

This would be a good way to check, too. Perhaps we'd use 2 copies of the paperwork; 1 by the trackers and 1 by the PB. The trackers would record the penalty codes and jams. When the opportunity presents itself, we'll switch the clipboards during the lineup countdown.

I'll keep thinking on this. Meanwhile, I'll pass the idea along.

The trackers already have this paperwork - it's the penalty tracking sheets. The issue is that if they're incorrect, we have no easy way of making a comparison with the penalty box sheets at a glance. I think box manager and/or box staff is the natural place to have this paperwork (only the one copy) - but as Eject You Later says, it's just as easy to squeeze a small grid onto the bottom of the first page of the penalty box paperwork and have it tracked there - which means all your information is on the one sheet/type of sheet, rather than having two different sets of paperwork to complete.

Offline SilkenTofu

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Re: Tracking penalties served
« Reply #4 on: March 21, 2012, 01:12:21 pm »
I've acquired a swanky version of the statsbook from the Head NSO of a nearby league, which auto-populates the rosters into a table on the side of the penalty box sheets.  It's intended for exactly what Eject did at South Centrals--the timer just puts a little tally mark each time the skater sits, and checks that against the whiteboard.  It's magical.  At least, it's going to be--I'll be using it at home for the first time next week.  :)
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Offline ShoNuff

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Re: Tracking penalties served
« Reply #5 on: March 21, 2012, 02:16:11 pm »
I picked up the margin tally sheet from McQ at Brewhaha last year.  My impression throughout last season was that having the box staff in some way keep a record they can check the IWB with is becoming an increasingly common unofficial practice.

The issue I've been trying to sort out is what is the most robust way to approach having the information quickly available.

I've had comments from head refs that what they want is to be able to skate over to the box and ask how many penalties has skater # served and get a quick answer back.

For catching penalties, you want something that mirrors the form of the IWB but shows served penalties versus called penalties.  That way you can confirm they are the same.

So this should be exactly like the penalty tracking sheet. 

If everything is working properly, then both the form I posted as well as the timers keeping a tally is going to exactly mirror the penalty tracking sheet.  The reason to do this is so that you can spot when they don't agree within a jam or two so that the problem can be solved while people still remember what happened.  If you come in at half time and say, hey, that skater had a penalty back in jam 5 that isn't on the board, there's not much chance anyone will have any idea what happened.  If you come in after jam 5 or 6 and say hey, I have this just served penalty and nothing on the board, you can usually sort it out fast.

I think having the timers each keep a tally, having the box manager keep a tally or having the lineup trackers keeping a tally will all work under normal game conditions.

Which approach is most robust to non-ordinary game conditions?  So when the entire penalty tracking and enforcement system is getting slammed, who are the best people to stay on top of this to keep cross-checks between penalty tracking and penalty service timely?

And that's where I'm not sure I know the answer.  There are some choices, can we figure out what the optimal choice is during a 100 penalty game versus a 50 penalty game.

Offline Major Wood

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Re: Tracking penalties served
« Reply #6 on: March 21, 2012, 03:02:27 pm »
Maybe I'm not understanding the issue here, but does the dot system not work for this?

The inside whiteboard marks down the call for each box trip, like usual. The inside whiteboard keeps an eye on the box to see who is sitting and puts a dot in the corner of that trip when the skater sits in the box. If there is a dot and no penalty, or vice versa, you know there is a problem.
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Offline ShoNuff

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Re: Tracking penalties served
« Reply #7 on: March 21, 2012, 03:09:26 pm »
My experience has been that the dot system does not hold up under heavy penalty traffic.  The penalty box only has to deal with 4th minors and majors, the penalty tracking staff has to pick up everything.

What I've seen is that this method gets overwhelmed first.  Before the box is swamped and the timers are too busy to be keeping an eye on the whiteboard, the IWB will be too busy helping in picking up penalties and getting them recorded to keep an eye on the penalty box.

I think it can rapidly become an unreasonable expectation on the IWB that they will keep up with the penalties in and keep up with the penalty service.  I think it is a lot easier to turn it around and have the penalty box keep an eye on the IWB and when things are going smoothly, they'd be checking each other.

This is adding another layer of redundancy but from all the comments of how other people are addressing it, I think it really is a needed layer.

Offline FNZebra

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Re: Tracking penalties served
« Reply #8 on: March 21, 2012, 03:29:20 pm »
My concern with using lineup trackers would be they can tell when someone served, but not why.

Someone in the box could ask a skater why they were sent to the box: fourth, major, or don't know. That info can provide a heads up that some things need to be double-checked.
You will bout as you practice.


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Offline Major Wood

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Re: Tracking penalties served
« Reply #9 on: March 21, 2012, 03:34:15 pm »
Shonuff, that's not really been my experience. Especially since standardizing to two trackers. The inside whiteboard op isn't spending as much time picking up penalties from referees as they are just getting penalties relayed to them by the two trackers.

Point taken on redundancy.
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Offline CircuitBroad

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Re: Tracking penalties served
« Reply #10 on: March 21, 2012, 03:38:54 pm »
Half the time skaters come into the box they turn to the timer and ask what they were sent for, especially in a penalty heavy bout, so I don't think relying on the skaters to know if they're sitting for a 4th minor or a major is a good idea.

Honestly, for purposes of tracking trips, it doesn't even matter why they went to the box, only that they did.  At Brewhaha last year we had a lot of skaters coming to the box after they were called for a minor, and a couple times when a skater had been given a major but never came to the box.  We checked our sheets against the IWB as often as possible to correct any erros......didn't figure out that handy little table idea tho, will use that for sure next time!  Way easier that counting every few jams.

Offline ttjustice

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Re: Tracking penalties served
« Reply #11 on: March 21, 2012, 04:35:58 pm »
I will see if I can get McQ or Deadeye comment on this thread about the methods we use to track penalties.  At the last bout the PBM caught a skater who failed to serve a penalty some 3 jams before and I am pretty sure it was due to crosschecking with the IWB.  Having served on the skating official side of things I am a bit unfamiliar with all the amazing stuff our NSO crew does behind the scenes so I think it best to let them write about it.
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Offline deadeye

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Re: Tracking penalties served
« Reply #12 on: March 21, 2012, 07:25:41 pm »
There are a few key things that need to happen in order to avoid problems

1. The IWB should not dot any box trips w/o visual confirmation and/or a nod from the PBM. These two should maintain significant and meaningful eye contact and use their non-verbal communication skills.

2. The PBM should direct and aid PBTs in reconciling box trip counts, whether they keep a grid or not the total should always add up.

3. The PBM should monitor incoming traffic and record skaters who have to be waived off. Any waived off skaters should prompt some significant non-verbal communication with the IWB as soon as possible.

It's like a dance, you have to know who your partner is. In this case IWB-PBM, kissing in a tree forever.
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