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Author Topic: Lineup tracking: slashes vs numbers in the box fields  (Read 5530 times)

Offline Slaying Mantis

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Lineup tracking: slashes vs numbers in the box fields
« on: March 22, 2012, 03:25:18 am »
Thoughts on this?

If I get the opportunity to instruct the Lineup trackers on the tracking procedures, I always require that the number of the opposing jammer's passes be recorded when a skater is sent to the box (as the instructions are written on the sheet), but often get resistance from trackers who have been taught to just use slashes. 

As the person who enters the stats in the spreadsheet, the numbers seem more meaningful; where discrepancies lie in other stat sheets (penalties, score, jam #, etc.), when lineups are recorded correctly, I can remedy small logistical errors by referring to the lineup sheets. 

Am I too strict on this? Do the slashes in the box field say enough?

Offline Slaying Mantis

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Re: Lineup tracking: slashes vs numbers in the box fields
« Reply #1 on: March 22, 2012, 03:55:25 am »
I see that this is more appropriate to the paperwork forum -- I attempted to delete to copy to that board but was not allowed to delete my own thread. If moderators agree and want to move it to the paperwork section please do, thanks. :)

Offline PackMan

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Re: Lineup tracking: slashes vs numbers in the box fields
« Reply #2 on: March 22, 2012, 02:41:40 pm »
I think the numbers in the the box column are imperative.  They are what allows for a paper reproduction of the bout.  Also, without the numbers the lineup trackers aren't adding any information to what the penalty box manager is tracking.  Slashes would be completely redundant info.

Offline bjmacke

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Re: Lineup tracking: slashes vs numbers in the box fields
« Reply #3 on: March 22, 2012, 03:17:27 pm »
It might depend on what you mean by the use of slashes, and even that position might be controversial.

Scenario #1: All slashes, all the time. This would mean the LT is marking "yup, they in the box" and "yup, they left" for each trip. If that's what you're talking about then, yes, very redundant.

Scenario #2: Lap entered/exited recorded, slashes between jams for multi-jam sits. I'm a bit biased towards this method because it's the one I use. I also know it could be controversial because I've heard opposition to it. The basic reasoning is that you shouldn't enter a lap count unless the skater is actually entering or exiting the box. The alternatives (yes, there are more than one) create an ambiguity in the paperwork of a return to the box between jams.

Not sure if there are other scenarios to using slashes.
also known as Apron, if you didn't know already.

Offline theMadStatter

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Re: Lineup tracking: slashes vs numbers in the box fields
« Reply #4 on: March 22, 2012, 06:48:04 pm »
We do a slash in the right hand box to indicate "still in the box at the end of the jam".

A zero in the left hand box then indicates "they are in the box at the start of the jam" (regardless if it was due to still sitting there when the last jam expired, or if they came in between the jams).

(This is what they were teaching about bout recreation at the clinics)

There is also controversy over what to put down if a blocker comes in before the jammers are released (we now record that as "1"), and if the lineup pass matches the scoring pass, or if it ends only when the jammer enters the rear of the engagement zone (after doing it the other way due to "that's how it was done at this tournament", we go with "matches the scoring pass" after Ump corrected us recently).

Offline SilkenTofu

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Re: Lineup tracking: slashes vs numbers in the box fields
« Reply #5 on: March 22, 2012, 10:00:09 pm »
There is also controversy over what to put down if a blocker comes in before the jammers are released (we now record that as "1"), and if the lineup pass matches the scoring pass, or if it ends only when the jammer enters the rear of the engagement zone (after doing it the other way due to "that's how it was done at this tournament", we go with "matches the scoring pass" after Ump corrected us recently).

I had this exact same situation recently (well, it wasn't Ump, but yeah), which has led to my going back to the "slash-and-X" system until I have an official clarification.  I prefer matching to the score sheet passes, but have already encountered a lot of confusion from people who were trained the other way after a tournament.
« Last Edit: March 23, 2012, 04:04:14 am by SilkenTofu »
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Offline Auntie Bellum

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Re: Lineup tracking: slashes vs numbers in the box fields
« Reply #6 on: March 23, 2012, 02:43:44 pm »
I see line up tracking as something that has levels of comfort.  When doing both teams I just try to be sure to get the line up.

When I do per pass tracking I record pass numbers when the jammer is in the box if I have a clear view of the box, which isn't always the case.  I do slashes when I don't.

I have only had the blocker come in before the jammer once and I put B in the box and an explanation on the bottom of the sheet, which is how I usually handle stuff I don't know how to record, make something up that makes sense and make a note of what I did so I remember what was going on at the end of the bout.

Offline Slaying Mantis

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Re: Lineup tracking: slashes vs numbers in the box fields
« Reply #7 on: March 24, 2012, 03:36:23 am »
In this case, I had slashes for when the skater enters the box, but numbers for when she left. Evidently Excel also does not like the slashes and I have to go to the field and hit backspace in order for it to let me even enter a slash. Not so bad once I get on a roll, but still more work for the data entry minion.

I think from now on I will just try to make time (not easy with our bout schedules, however - venue issue) to make sure the lineup trackers do it the way the sheet states -- with the numbers so that it is easier for whoever is entering the data, and is more precise.

Thanks everyone for your feedback!

Offline bjmacke

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Re: Lineup tracking: slashes vs numbers in the box fields
« Reply #8 on: March 25, 2012, 04:06:36 pm »
Last year when I was entering ECDX paperwork I think I used <space><dash> for the slashes. It's been a while, though.
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Offline nsodave

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Re: Lineup tracking: slashes vs numbers in the box fields
« Reply #9 on: June 06, 2012, 07:04:25 am »
The idea of tracking the opposing jammer's scoring passes on the lineup tracking sheet is to track when the skater(s) entered and exited the penalty box. This is done to see if that penalty resulted in ghost points for the opposing jammer.  This is done for stats purposes to see if that skater(s) trip to the PB is costing their team points. So after the initial pass, don't mark off pass 2 (or subsequent passes) until the jammer has passed an opposing blocker, because that is when the ghost points are rewarded. If the jammer entered the back of the engagement zone on a scoring pass and the jam ended prior to her passing an opposing blocker, no ghost points would be awarded so you wouldn't use a slash to show another scoring pass.

Also I mark off pass one as soon as the jam whistle blows. Anyone in or on the way to the box in regulation is not being scored upon at that time.

Offline PackMan

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Re: Lineup tracking: slashes vs numbers in the box fields
« Reply #10 on: June 07, 2012, 05:08:21 pm »
I would not mark through a pass number until that pass has been completed, which isn't until the jammer exits the front of the engagement zone.  Here's one reason why.  A jammer who, for example, gets a major cut on the foremost blocker on initial pass will return from the track still on that initial pass.  The jammer ref will not be counting points because It's the initial pass.  A coach may question that having seen the jammer pass all the blockers.  Best way to clear up the question of which pass the jammer was on could be to check the lineup tracking, but if the tracker already marked the pass complete, then there is no evidence to support the ref who was correct.

edit: corrected typos.
« Last Edit: June 08, 2012, 08:32:56 pm by PackMan »

Offline ShoNuff

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Re: Lineup tracking: slashes vs numbers in the box fields
« Reply #11 on: June 08, 2012, 05:06:59 pm »
When do people mark skaters in and out of the box on the lineup sheets?

The ideal would obviously be at the moment they are directed off the track and are considered in the box for scoring purposes and then when they have returned to play and are ahead of the jammer in her current scoring pass, when they cease to be a NOTT point.

In practice, I've generally seen people mark when they sat and when they were dismissed from the box.  But these markers fail to cover the entire time when they are available as a NOTT point.

Do people try to record based on when they are and are not a NOTT, or do they base it on box arrival and departure?

Offline Bratty Cardia

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Re: Lineup tracking: slashes vs numbers in the box fields
« Reply #12 on: June 10, 2012, 09:07:41 pm »
I've scarcely ever done lineup tracking, and I'm not sure my brain likes it very much when I try, but I definitely use the pass number of when the skater was directed off the track. When they were physically sitting in the box is more of a responsibility for the penalty box staff and inside whiteboard, right?

Likewise, I write the appropriate pass number for when the skater returns to the track, as opposed to when she is merely released from the box. I suppose this coincides with the NOTT point time, yes?
Bratty Cardia
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Offline theMadStatter

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Re: Lineup tracking: slashes vs numbers in the box fields
« Reply #13 on: June 11, 2012, 05:29:59 pm »
While recording the instant they are directed off the track (assuming you can determine that from across the venue, when sometimes even the skaters themselves don't know about it) is more accurate, it can cause problems.

When you reconcile the penalty box paperwork with the lineup tracker ("I've got red 314 serving in jam 3...") there will not be a one-to-one correspondence if the box was full and the skater was directed back to the track (since that information isn't normally recorded in the box paperwork).  So if one were to do that, some sort of "wave back" notation should also be added to the lineup tracking.

This can also increase the chance of running out of space as well, since there are only two rows to record box trips, and adding the extra "return to track" trip will use up half of the available space (you can already run out of space if the skater starts in the box with a few seconds left, returns right away, and then the jam goes the full 2:00 given them a chance to get another penalty at near the end of the jam)

Of course, if you don't record it, you've missed out on the ability to verify potentially several NOTT point.


 

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