Menu

ZH Classifieds
ZH Files
ZH Staff
WFTDA 3/1/2014 Rules

Donate

Please Support Zebra Huddle!

Recent Posts

Re: missing wrist guard by BadgerBadger
October 24, 2014, 10:20:51 pm

missing wrist guard by Bluebeard
October 24, 2014, 08:48:28 pm

Re: impede=lose relative position? by Darth Bling
October 24, 2014, 08:06:50 pm

Re: Changing helmets? by Julius Seizure
October 24, 2014, 04:04:43 pm

Re: Changing helmets? by Axis of Stevil
October 24, 2014, 01:03:02 pm

Changing helmets? by QED
October 24, 2014, 12:37:03 pm

Re: impede=lose relative position? by QED
October 24, 2014, 02:19:39 am

Re: Am I being too much of a hardarse in "fun" games? by 1600-DOCTORB
October 24, 2014, 01:21:00 am

Re: Illegal reentry in front of the pack by Darkjester
October 23, 2014, 08:19:48 pm

Re: Low block? by Darkjester
October 23, 2014, 08:05:10 pm

Author Topic: False start?  (Read 3897 times)

Offline kornable

  • Referee
  • Full Member
  • **
  • Posts: 205
  • Stats Sheet: 7
  • League Affiliation: Sun State Roller Girls
  • Referee Certification Level: Not Certified
  • NSO Certification Level: Not Certified
Re: False start?
« Reply #15 on: June 26, 2012, 01:12:03 pm »
it is generally accepted that being in the process of taking a step over the line AT the jammer start whistle isn't considered accelerating AT the jammer start whistle.

Offline Bratty Cardia

  • Referee
  • Full Member
  • **
  • Posts: 122
  • Stats Sheet: 15
  • League Affiliation: Toronto Roller Derby
  • Referee Certification Level: Not Certified
  • NSO Certification Level: Not Certified
Re: False start?
« Reply #16 on: June 26, 2012, 10:54:02 pm »
The end-of-jam whistle is four short tweets, and the jam ends on the fourth one of those. Is it too much to assume by analogy that the second tweet of the Jammer start whistle is when the Jammers are allowed to start accelerating past the line? I ask this because I see a lot of Jammers start stepping at the first tweet and I've been all kinds of unsure as to whether this would count as a false start, because they are accelerating at the moment of the second tweet.

You'd think the term "Jammer Start Whistle" would be enough, but my confusion remains...
Bratty Cardia
2.2.2 — The team with the most points at the end of the game wins.

Offline The Gorram Reaver

  • Referee
  • Hero Member
  • **
  • Posts: 846
  • Stats Sheet: 59
  • League Affiliation: Mad Rollin' Dolls
  • Referee Certification Level: Level 2
  • NSO Certification Level: Not Certified
Re: False start?
« Reply #17 on: June 27, 2012, 12:23:28 am »
The end-of-jam whistle is four short tweets, and the jam ends on the fourth one of those. Is it too much to assume by analogy that the second tweet of the Jammer start whistle is when the Jammers are allowed to start accelerating past the line? I ask this because I see a lot of Jammers start stepping at the first tweet and I've been all kinds of unsure as to whether this would count as a false start, because they are accelerating at the moment of the second tweet.

You'd think the term "Jammer Start Whistle" would be enough, but my confusion remains...

Exactly the opposite.  The jam runs until the end (fourth whistle) of the Jam Ending Signal.  The Jammers are released at the beginning (first whistle) of the Jammer Start Whistle.  Start at the beginning, end at the end.
The Gorram Reaver
Mad Rollin' Dolls, Madison, WI

Offline Black Adder

  • Referee
  • Sr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 258
  • Stats Sheet: 5
  • League Affiliation: Sun State Roller Girls
  • Referee Certification Level: Not Certified
  • NSO Certification Level: Not Certified
Re: False start?
« Reply #18 on: June 27, 2012, 06:13:36 am »
The end-of-jam whistle is four short tweets, and the jam ends on the fourth one of those. Is it too much to assume by analogy that the second tweet of the Jammer start whistle is when the Jammers are allowed to start accelerating past the line? I ask this because I see a lot of Jammers start stepping at the first tweet and I've been all kinds of unsure as to whether this would count as a false start, because they are accelerating at the moment of the second tweet.

You'd think the term "Jammer Start Whistle" would be enough, but my confusion remains...

Exactly the opposite.  The jam runs until the end (fourth whistle) of the Jam Ending Signal.  The Jammers are released at the beginning (first whistle) of the Jammer Start Whistle.  Start at the beginning, end at the end.


Those first jammer start whistles should be so close together it shouldn't really make a difference.

Offline Stegoscorus

  • Referee
  • Hero Member
  • **
  • Posts: 773
  • Stats Sheet: 51
  • STOP. Collaborate, and listen.
  • League Affiliation: Rose City Rollers
  • Referee Certification Level: Level 3
  • NSO Certification Level: Not Certified
Re: False start?
« Reply #19 on: June 27, 2012, 04:44:52 pm »
Also, I wouldn't consider stepping necessarily accelerating.  The "no accelerating" rule was put in place to keep Jammers from starting way behind the Jammer line and racing up to it in order to cross the line at full speed.
WFTDA Certified Referee - Level 3
Founding Member, ARROW
Portland, OR, U.S.A.

Offline Riff Reff

  • Referee
  • Superhero Member
  • **
  • Posts: 1000
  • Stats Sheet: 30
  • League Affiliation: Stuttgart Valley Rollergirlz
  • Referee Certification Level: Level 2
  • NSO Certification Level: Not Certified
Re: False start?
« Reply #20 on: July 03, 2012, 12:01:22 pm »
Let me get more specific:
No Pack start. Jammer is on the line. Refs call "No Pack". Jammer takes off and the jammer whistle sounds just before Jammer touches the track beyond the Jammer line. Is that a false start?
Don't look at the game with rules-tinted glasses; look at the rules with game-tinted glasses!

Offline The Gorram Reaver

  • Referee
  • Hero Member
  • **
  • Posts: 846
  • Stats Sheet: 59
  • League Affiliation: Mad Rollin' Dolls
  • Referee Certification Level: Level 2
  • NSO Certification Level: Not Certified
Re: False start?
« Reply #21 on: July 03, 2012, 12:09:59 pm »
Let me get more specific:
No Pack start. Jammer is on the line. Refs call "No Pack". Jammer takes off and the jammer whistle sounds just before Jammer touches the track beyond the Jammer line. Is that a false start?

If she is on her first step (not taking a running start) and no part of her person or equipment touches the floor forward of the Jammer line before the Jammer whistle sounds, no, it is not a false start.
The Gorram Reaver
Mad Rollin' Dolls, Madison, WI

Offline Riff Reff

  • Referee
  • Superhero Member
  • **
  • Posts: 1000
  • Stats Sheet: 30
  • League Affiliation: Stuttgart Valley Rollergirlz
  • Referee Certification Level: Level 2
  • NSO Certification Level: Not Certified
Re: False start?
« Reply #22 on: July 03, 2012, 12:12:07 pm »
If she is on her first step (not taking a running start) and no part of her person or equipment touches the floor forward of the Jammer line before the Jammer whistle sounds, no, it is not a false start.

Awesome. That's comprehensible! Thanks!
Don't look at the game with rules-tinted glasses; look at the rules with game-tinted glasses!

Offline Megapickle

  • Referee
  • Hero Member
  • **
  • Posts: 592
  • Stats Sheet: 16
  • League Affiliation: Emerald City Roller Girls & Lane County Concussion
  • Referee Certification Level: Not Certified
  • NSO Certification Level: Not Certified
Re: False start?
« Reply #23 on: July 03, 2012, 03:39:56 pm »
If she is on her first step (not taking a running start) and no part of her person or equipment touches the floor forward of the Jammer line before the Jammer whistle sounds, no, it is not a false start.

This IS definitely how it's currently being called, but I find the reasoning utterly incomprehensible. The first step is when the vast majority of the acceleration (="increase of speed") happens, and that's what's explicitly disallowed by 4.4.2.

Can anyone think of another sport in which players are allowed to step or jump forward (but not touch the ground) before their 'start' signal? I'm curious, because I'd like to read the wording of such a rule, to get a proper suggestion into the WFTDA pipeline.

Offline J. Ref K.

  • Referee
  • Sr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 330
  • Stats Sheet: 1
  • League Affiliation: Unaffiliated
  • Referee Certification Level: Not Certified
  • NSO Certification Level: Not Certified
Re: False start?
« Reply #24 on: July 03, 2012, 05:53:03 pm »
Deja vu... ;)
Actually, there's an old clarification that "stepping" isn't "accelerating". It got taken down at the last rules update, annoyingly, but it's still how the rule is called. (You're thinking "How can stepping not be accelerating?" The answer is "Because WFTDA said so. And eat your vegetables".)
Agreed, taking that Q&A down is just plain annoying. This point is *not* clear in the rules themselves, and completely deserves this clarification, especially since their answer defies the physical definition of "accelerating":
WFTDA Rule/Clarification:
Question:
Does a Jammer jumping or stepping from a standstill over the Jammer line, but not touching the floor beyond this line, qualify as “accelerating” for the purposes of determining false start?
Answer:
No. To be accelerating, a skater needs to be running or skating. Stepping or jumping from a standstill is not accelerating, and is not to be penalized.

(Found here: http://www.zebrahuddle.com/index.php?topic=9.0, or at http://web.archive.org/. These obsolete documents are potentially dangerous, but as Bang said, this particular one is still in application.)
"Leadership and learning are indispensable to each other."  -JFK

Offline FNZebra

  • Referee
  • Superhero Member
  • **
  • Posts: 1293
  • Stats Sheet: 33
  • I'm a shitty ref.
  • League Affiliation: Bleeding Heartland Roller Derby
  • Referee Certification Level: Level 2
  • NSO Certification Level: Not Certified
Re: False start?
« Reply #25 on: July 03, 2012, 05:56:02 pm »
Can anyone think of another sport in which players are allowed to step or jump forward (but not touch the ground) before their 'start' signal? I'm curious, because I'd like to read the wording of such a rule, to get a proper suggestion into the WFTDA pipeline.

In-bounding the ball in basketball. The player passing the ball is permitted to be moving forward, as long as no part of their feet are touching in-bounds.

Honestly, the skaters have already decided they like this, the refs know how to call it (yes, the physics of acceleration/deceleration has been mentioned numerous times by both parties over the years), so attempts at invoking change elsewhere are faaaaarrrrr more likely to bear fruit.
You will bout as you practice.


Cheers,

FN Zebra
Bleeding Heartland Roller Derby (WFTDA)
Bloomington, Indianer

Offline mick hawkins

  • Referee
  • Superhero Member
  • **
  • Posts: 1926
  • Stats Sheet: 61
  • They're covers people. Helmet COVERS!
  • Referee Certification Level: Not Certified
  • NSO Certification Level: Not Certified
Re: False start?
« Reply #26 on: July 04, 2012, 12:40:53 am »
If she is on her first step (not taking a running start) and no part of her person or equipment touches the floor forward of the Jammer line before the Jammer whistle sounds, no, it is not a false start.

This IS definitely how it's currently being called, but I find the reasoning utterly incomprehensible. The first step is when the vast majority of the acceleration (="increase of speed") happens, and that's what's explicitly disallowed by 4.4.2.

Can anyone think of another sport in which players are allowed to step or jump forward (but not touch the ground) before their 'start' signal? I'm curious, because I'd like to read the wording of such a rule, to get a proper suggestion into the WFTDA pipeline.

The first time I watched American football, I couldn't believe they could score (touchdown) just by getting the ball over the line IN THE AIR. It doesn't need to touch the ground. It made no sense.

Football in this part of the world requires the ball to be grounded to score.

Different sports are... well... different.
Sun State Roller Girls (WFTDA Apprentice League)
Brisbane, Australia

Offline Eject You Later

  • Referee
  • Hero Member
  • **
  • Posts: 579
  • Stats Sheet: 24
  • League Affiliation: Old Capitol City Roller Girls
  • Referee Certification Level: Level 2
  • NSO Certification Level: Not Certified
Re: False start?
« Reply #27 on: July 04, 2012, 12:57:35 am »
Quote from: mick hawkins link=topic=2666.msg37981#msg37981
The first time I watched American football, I couldn't believe they could score (touchdown) just by getting the ball over the line IN THE AIR. It doesn't need to touch the ground. It made no sense.

That is not entirely accurate.  You can't just throw it over the line.  It has to be in the possession of someone air born breaking the plane of the end zone, or caught within the end zone.  Or just run across the goal line as well.
« Last Edit: July 04, 2012, 06:00:25 am by Eject You Later »
Eject You Later - Referee
Old Capitol City Roller Girls of Coralville, IA
WFTDA Member League
Zebra Huddle Referee Verifier

Offline mick hawkins

  • Referee
  • Superhero Member
  • **
  • Posts: 1926
  • Stats Sheet: 61
  • They're covers people. Helmet COVERS!
  • Referee Certification Level: Not Certified
  • NSO Certification Level: Not Certified
Re: False start?
« Reply #28 on: July 04, 2012, 01:00:49 am »
Oh I know that  :P
You can't throw the ball over the goal line in League either.


Thinking more about the starts in Derby, I much prefer that skaters can move, step, whatever, before the whistle.
This is so much better than in swimming or athletics when everyone must be stationary and a false start is awarded for starting/moving before the whistle.

Story on athletics starts
« Last Edit: July 04, 2012, 01:04:04 am by mick hawkins »
Sun State Roller Girls (WFTDA Apprentice League)
Brisbane, Australia

Offline Rowan De Boate

  • Referee
  • Newbie
  • **
  • Posts: 43
  • Stats Sheet: 0
Re: False start?
« Reply #29 on: July 04, 2012, 01:12:33 am »
Soccer and Afl, both do not require the ball being grounded over the line, just over (according to that codes rules) the line.
 ;)
Adelaide Roller Derby (ADRD)
Adelaide Australia

 

Featured Product

Zebra Huddle Head Referee Bout Booklet

Featured Classifieds


ZH Files

June 2013 Ruleset situational questions
Rating: *****
Downloads: 509
Views: 819
Filesize: 29.71KB
Date: February 07, 2014, 04:57:32 pm
Comments (2)
By: Crash Test Ref
Rules Q&A and Publications for 6/15/13 Document
Rating: (None)
Downloads: 778
Views: 1171
Filesize: 26.27KB
Date: August 02, 2013, 04:10:40 pm
Comments (0)
By: Shaun Ketterman
Rules Q&A and Publications for 1/1/13 Document (4/24/13 Updates)
Rating: *****
Downloads: 1456
Views: 1438
Filesize: 28.07KB
Date: April 25, 2013, 05:45:34 pm
Comments (0)
By: Shaun Ketterman
Scrimmage Paperwork and Statsbook
Rating: (None)
Downloads: 847
Views: 1872
Filesize: 0KB
Date: March 22, 2013, 02:16:04 am
Comments (0)
By: Insane Troll Logic

Powered by EzPortal