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Author Topic: missed a false starting jammer...twice  (Read 14047 times)

Offline Freddie Mercenary

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missed a false starting jammer...twice
« on: March 25, 2012, 05:42:44 pm »
I was way off my game, Jam reffing recently, my jammer was in the box and standing to start the jam.  Her team took notice and slow started to eat away at the penalty time.  my jammer rushes out of the box cuts through the pack without touching an opposing blocker in the process and i give her lead jammer.  In all the excitement i didn't notice that the jam timer didn't start the jammers until after mine had entered the pack.  she scored 4 and called it off, and the other jam ref pulled me aside to notify me of the mistake.  

best part?  an almost identical situation happened in the second half with moslty the same results.   while i can (jokingly) say that it was only fair, i was pretty discouraged that i had made the mistake in front of a couple refs i really look up to.  thankfully they were supportive.  it was a pretty rough night.  
« Last Edit: March 25, 2012, 05:50:08 pm by Freddie Mercenary »
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Offline The Doc

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Re: missed a false starting jammer...twice
« Reply #1 on: March 25, 2012, 08:11:19 pm »
the jammer can not get a false start until the jammer whistle blows, but if see comes out of the box and makes contact with an opposing playing before the jammer whistle, it is an OUT OF PLAY block penalty on the jammer.
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Offline ttjustice

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Re: missed a false starting jammer...twice
« Reply #2 on: March 26, 2012, 02:47:04 am »
Also-

7.3.7.4
If a Jammer begins the jam in the box and her penalty time expires after the first whistle blows, but before the Jammer starting whistle blows, the Jammer coming out of the penalty box must enter behind the opposing Jammer.

If she doesn't yield, major IP.

I know the feeling of screwing the same thing up twice.  I called double lead jammer to a team twice in consecutive years as a guest referee.  The only positive is that coach and i knew each other from previous bouts so after that second time he gave me the wry smile and the "What the hell Justice!" and we kinda laughed about it.  Very embarrassing!
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Offline Major Wood

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Re: missed a false starting jammer...twice
« Reply #3 on: March 26, 2012, 06:14:58 am »
I think that two good answers have been given, so I'm going to derail this with a hypothetical.

She left the box before the second whistle.
False start, yes?

She is making her way through the pack as the jammer referee notifies her of the false start minor.
Lets say the pack is stopped and that she found a line that allowed her through the pack easily and the jammer referee assessed the major penalty after she cleared the engagement zone.

Does she get lead jammer?
What pass will she be on after she returns from the penalty box?
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Offline mick hawkins

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Re: missed a false starting jammer...twice
« Reply #4 on: March 26, 2012, 07:12:29 am »
I think that two good answers have been given, so I'm going to derail this with a hypothetical.

She left the box before the second whistle.
False start, yes?

She is making her way through the pack as the jammer referee notifies her of the false start minor.
Lets say the pack is stopped and that she found a line that allowed her through the pack easily and the jammer referee assessed the major penalty after she cleared the engagement zone.

Does she get lead jammer?
What pass will she be on after she returns from the penalty box?

I'm assuming she passed the last inplay blocker just before leaving the EZ. (Otherwise I'm having trouble imagining it)

I'm thinking Lead could only be awarded because she failed to yield in the first place.
So, she failed to yield first.
The penalty should be given first.
No Lead.

 - I'm having trouble justifying this in the rules, but I dont think she's satisfied the requirement to pass all skaters legally - because she false started. By false starting she MUST yield.

She cleared the EZ before being sent off.
So her pass is completed.
When she returns she's on her first scoring pass.

- I do think she's satified the requirement to complete a pass: exiting the EZ.
[rule]8.3.1.2 Once the Jammer has cleared the foremost pack skater by twenty (20) feet/exited the front of the engagement zone, her scoring pass is complete (see Sections 3.4Lead Jammer and4.1 Pack Definition) and she immediately begins her next scoring pass.[/rule]



« Last Edit: March 26, 2012, 07:24:57 am by mick hawkins »
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Offline Darkjester

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Re: missed a false starting jammer...twice
« Reply #5 on: March 26, 2012, 11:23:23 am »
I'm wondering about that one...


Follow my logic and by all means point out of I'm missing something.

A false start penalty doesn't occur until the 2nd whistle.. ( Until that time frame she IS out of position, but is not penalized if she returns to position prior to the 2nd whistle.)

So..

False starting jammer standing at box..

Initial Pack Start whistle blows..

Team 'delays' Jammer start.

Jammer is released..

Jammer soars onto the track (ahead of opposing jammer, 2nd whistle still has not blown yet)

Jammer makes it across the pivot line.. Jammer= REALLY far behind Opposing Jammer=Yield?

I guess it depends on 'when' the 2nd whistle blows, and when the False Start minor is assessed.

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Offline psi'd kick

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Re: missed a false starting jammer...twice
« Reply #6 on: March 26, 2012, 02:31:34 pm »
I'm wondering about that one...


Follow my logic and by all means point out of I'm missing something.

A false start penalty doesn't occur until the 2nd whistle.. ( Until that time frame she IS out of position, but is not penalized if she returns to position prior to the 2nd whistle.)

So..

False starting jammer standing at box..

Initial Pack Start whistle blows..

Team 'delays' Jammer start.

Jammer is released..

Jammer soars onto the track (ahead of opposing jammer, 2nd whistle still has not blown yet)

Jammer makes it across the pivot line.. Jammer= REALLY far behind Opposing Jammer=Yield?

I guess it depends on 'when' the 2nd whistle blows, and when the False Start minor is assessed.



If the jammer is ahead of the pivot line when the second whistle blows...

Jammer is REALLY far behind Opposing Jammer.
She doesn't need to yield: she needs to skate really fast to catch up to the other jammer to start her initial pass.

If the jammer hit any blockers on her way through the pack, she could be given Illegal Engagement penalties.



If that jammer opts to "yield" to the pack, she will be down a pass. She would actually have to pass through the pack to get back up to her initial pass. Then pass through the pack a second time to make her 'initial pass', and then after that she could start scoring points.

Offline Cliquework

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Re: missed a false starting jammer...twice
« Reply #7 on: March 26, 2012, 03:28:55 pm »
In response to Wood's scenario:

I also believe I would not award lead, or rather remove it from the jam being that she's going to the box. We are upgrading the original FS to a Major. This original penalty was given prior to passing all other skaters and leaving the EZ.

I would not consider lead to have been awarded and it would be available to the other jammer.
And by the same rationale, initial pass upon returning from the box.

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Offline Celtic Raider

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Re: missed a false starting jammer...twice
« Reply #8 on: March 26, 2012, 03:42:23 pm »
If that jammer opts to "yield" to the pack, she will be down a pass. She would actually have to pass through the pack to get back up to her initial pass. Then pass through the pack a second time to make her 'initial pass', and then after that she could start scoring points.

But we don't count the passes that she's on.  If the pack passes her twice she's still on the same lap as she was before.  We only consider her on a different pass when the Jammer leaves the EZ of her own volition.

As for Woods scenario, I agree with Mick and Clique.  She gets the penalty and if Lead was awarded it was done in error, rescind the Lead status from her, and it's still available to the other Jammer.  If the Jammer Refs didn't do this, as HR I would try to make sure that was communicated to them as I could.

Offline Darkjester

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Re: missed a false starting jammer...twice
« Reply #9 on: March 26, 2012, 04:51:03 pm »
Thats where my conundrum in Woods Hypothetical comes in.

If the jammer makes it across the pivot line, then technically she HASN'T False started (Unless the 2nd whistle blew in there somewhere)

So she technically doesn't need to yield at all.

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Offline Celtic Raider

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Re: missed a false starting jammer...twice
« Reply #10 on: March 26, 2012, 07:16:36 pm »
Technically her start position was the penalty box, so unless she's inside the penalty box area, she's past her starting line and technically she's false started.

Offline Bratty Cardia

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Re: missed a false starting jammer...twice
« Reply #11 on: March 26, 2012, 11:56:17 pm »
Given that the other team had a Jammer on the track, the appropriate rule should be:

Code: [Select]
7.3.7.4If a Jammer begins the jam in the box and her penalty time expires after the first whistle blows, but before the Jammer starting whistle blows, the Jammer coming out of the penalty box must enter behind the opposing Jammer.
If she fails to do this, what happens? The sections of the Illegal Procedure rules that deal with returning from the box all make reference to pack skaters, of which the opposing Jammer is not one. The false start penalty ought to be issued only after the Jammer start whistle blows, of course.

In response to Major Wood's hypothetical question, I'm totally with Cliquework here. The strange thing about false start penalties is that they're delayed based on the skater's actions. The false start announcement (possibly a minor penalty) is signalled as the Jammer is in the pack (after the Jammer start whistle), but she keeps on skating. It is irrelevant that she passes the rest of the blockers, because her action of continuing to skate makes it such that the original false start announcement is upgraded into a major penalty (instead of standing as a minor penalty).

She did not pass the foremost in-play Blocker legally and in bounds due to the false start, hence she cannot be Lead Jammer. She will be on her initial pass if she returns from the box during this jam.

Compounded hypothetical question: If the Jammer false starts past two Blockers, and yields by allowing one opposing Blocker to pass her, can she skate forward and gain Lead Jammer without repassing the one Blocker who remained behind her?
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Offline mick hawkins

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Re: missed a false starting jammer...twice
« Reply #12 on: March 27, 2012, 01:01:48 am »
She will be on her initial pass if she returns from the box during this jam.

Why?
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Offline Bratty Cardia

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Re: missed a false starting jammer...twice
« Reply #13 on: March 27, 2012, 02:24:47 am »
Because the major penalty foul, meriting a penalty, occurred the instant she failed to yield, which was before she cleared the Engagement Zone. However, the rules may disagree with me on this point.

Code: [Select]
7.3.2.2.1The moment the penalized skater is directed off the track, she is considered "in the box" for scoring, Lead Jammer, and cutting the track rule purposes. However, her penalty time will not start until she is seated in the box.
This rule seems to be in reference to Blockers, though, i.e. when a Blocker is signalled off the track, it is no longer necessary to pass her to gain Lead Jammer. Still, this seems counterintuitive to me. The penalty, obviously, should be signalled as soon as possible, but does the delay in its signalling mean that the Jammer is credited with having finished her first pass?

(Also, I missed your post somehow, Mick. It seems that we're in agreement, excepting which pass she returns on.)
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Offline mick hawkins

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Re: missed a false starting jammer...twice
« Reply #14 on: March 27, 2012, 05:25:51 am »
Yeah. To explain my take a little more...

The scenario says:

... the jammer referee assessed the major penalty after she cleared the engagement zone.

So she completed her pass THEN received the penalty.

With 8.3.1.2 I reckon the pass counts and she returns on a scoring pass.
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