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Author Topic: missed a false starting jammer...twice  (Read 15444 times)

Offline Darkjester

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Re: missed a false starting jammer...twice
« Reply #15 on: March 27, 2012, 02:00:03 pm »
Technically her start position was the penalty box, so unless she's inside the penalty box area, she's past her starting line and technically she's false started.
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Offline Cliquework

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Re: missed a false starting jammer...twice
« Reply #16 on: March 27, 2012, 04:14:05 pm »
Yeah. To explain my take a little more...

The scenario says:

... the jammer referee assessed the major penalty after she cleared the engagement zone.

So she completed her pass THEN received the penalty.

With 8.3.1.2 I reckon the pass counts and she returns on a scoring pass.

There is the crux. It wasn't pass then penalty. It was penalty, pass, original penalty upgrade. What takes precident then and is fair in this undefined scenario?

This seems akin to a scenario in which a jammer commits a major penalty, let's say low block or back block, but before the major is issued the falling opponent is passed. I would not award that point. Woods proposed scenario isn't specifically covered in the rules to my view, so no lead/initial pass is the call I would make based on my current understanding.
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Offline Shaun Ketterman

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Re: missed a false starting jammer...twice
« Reply #17 on: March 27, 2012, 04:44:12 pm »
I think that two good answers have been given, so I'm going to derail this with a hypothetical.

She left the box before the second whistle.
False start, yes?

She is making her way through the pack as the jammer referee notifies her of the false start minor.
Lets say the pack is stopped and that she found a line that allowed her through the pack easily and the jammer referee assessed the major penalty after she cleared the engagement zone.

Does she get lead jammer?
What pass will she be on after she returns from the penalty box?

I more or less agree with Cliquework.  The reason being is that we're not dealing with an additional penalty, we're dealing with an upgraded penalty.  If a player got a minor before exiting the pack and then a separate major after getting lead, that's one thing.  In this case, the penalty was awarded before she was through the pack.  In the case of false starts the outcome and aftermath of that intial infraction aren't decided before the action is complete (either a yield or failure to do so).  Therefore, once the advantage is not yielded, the ORIGINAL false start becomes a major.  Therefore, I think it's justifiable to "go back in time" in this case and not award lead and/or points.
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Offline mick hawkins

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Re: missed a false starting jammer...twice
« Reply #18 on: March 27, 2012, 11:17:03 pm »
Yeah. To explain my take a little more...

The scenario says:

... the jammer referee assessed the major penalty after she cleared the engagement zone.

So she completed her pass THEN received the penalty.

With 8.3.1.2 I reckon the pass counts and she returns on a scoring pass.

There is the crux. It wasn't pass then penalty. It was penalty, pass, original penalty upgrade. What takes precident then and is fair in this undefined scenario?

This seems akin to a scenario in which a jammer commits a major penalty, let's say low block or back block, but before the major is issued the falling opponent is passed. I would not award that point. Woods proposed scenario isn't specifically covered in the rules to my view, so no lead/initial pass is the call I would make based on my current understanding.

I understand that. I understand the going back in time.

But isn't 8.3.1.2 clear: when she's left the EZ her pass is complete?
[rule]8.3.1.2 Once the Jammer has cleared the foremost pack skater by twenty (20) feet/exited the front of the engagement zone, her scoring pass is complete (see Sections 3.4Lead Jammer and4.1 Pack Definition) and she immediately begins her next scoring pass.[/rule]

There's no mention that passes had to be legal - unlike the requirement for lead.

Sure she shouldn't have finished her pass, she should have been sent off before then.
... but that's not what happened

 :-\
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Offline ttjustice

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Re: missed a false starting jammer...twice
« Reply #19 on: March 28, 2012, 04:56:32 pm »
I stand behind Cliquework's interpretation on this scenario so if there is a bullet coming he can take it for me ;).

Seriously thats how I would have called MW's conundrum.

I also wonder if its time for MW to post the answer or if he is currently sitting back and thinking "What the heck did I do?" :)
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Offline Cliquework

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Re: missed a false starting jammer...twice
« Reply #20 on: March 28, 2012, 05:41:28 pm »
Quote
Sure she shouldn't have finished her pass, she should have been sent off before then.
... but that's not what happened

I realize that's how certain cases may be handled, call offs and points for example. Goes until the 4th whether you flub it or not.

Other times not. Just as I would not award the point in the earlier scenario I proposed. Nor would I consider a pass complete if the quick jammer committed a major penalty at 19ft, but passed 21 ft before I whistled. Eh, perhaps philisophically it's the difference of an official's error or not, but don't quote me. In these cases it's not official error, but simply human ability. I'm cueing up a series of tasks to enforce.

A Lead Jammer commits a major and tries to call it before you whistle the major?...Jam still on. Major first. There's a thread somewhere in here.

Major before the hips pass - no point. Major first.

False start - A delayed penalty when upgrading, sure, but I must let it complete before assessing the next thing...

It's just the call I'd make. If something changes in the future, so shall I.
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Offline Major Wood

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Re: missed a false starting jammer...twice
« Reply #21 on: March 28, 2012, 08:30:53 pm »
I also wonder if its time for MW to post the answer or if he is currently sitting back and thinking "What the heck did I do?" :)

I'm sitting back and letting the discussion happen.
I posted it not because I know the answer, but because I know there isn't one.
I tend to agree with Cliquework here. Not lead, but on scoring pass when she returns.

Doesn't mean it's right.
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Re: missed a false starting jammer...twice
« Reply #22 on: March 29, 2012, 12:21:01 am »

I tend to agree with Cliquework here. Not lead, but on scoring pass when she returns.

I think CW said initial pass on return.

?
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Offline mick hawkins

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Re: missed a false starting jammer...twice
« Reply #23 on: March 29, 2012, 12:36:47 am »
Eh, perhaps philisophically it's the difference of an official's error or not, but don't quote me. In these cases it's not official error, but simply human ability. I'm cueing up a series of tasks to enforce.

Ah... That's great. All through this i've been thinking "error", but you're right, of course. Sometimes it's simply not possible to get everything done as it happens.

Thanks - I'm going to borrow that.  :)

On the sceanrio, I'm going to take my own advice here:
When a bunch (gaggle? herd?) of experienced certified refs are saying the same thing - it's time to listen.
Thanks all.
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Offline Cliquework

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Re: missed a false starting jammer...twice
« Reply #24 on: March 29, 2012, 03:00:17 am »

I tend to agree with Cliquework here. Not lead, but on scoring pass when she returns.

I think CW said initial pass on return.

?

That would be where he "tends to agree". That would be his call or thought on the matter.

Not an exact science.

Good question, eh?
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