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Author Topic: 6.2: Guidance for penalties not listed  (Read 8313 times)

Offline mick hawkins

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6.2: Guidance for penalties not listed
« on: March 26, 2009, 11:58:42 pm »
Firstly, I don't think that this is a huge issue since only minor penalties can be given by proxy as per:
6.3.2 Minor Penalties
6.3.2.2 If no one player can be singled out to receive the penalty, it will go the team Captain or Pivot.

so, what do you do then if no-one can be singled out to receive a penalty... and that penalty should be a major?
are the rules saying that'll never happen? or that the major can't be awarded?

this confuses me

I cannot find a single enumerated major penalty in the rules which doesn't require identification of the skater.

If I've missed a rule, please let me know.


not all penalties are listed in the rules
just because one's not listed - doesnt mean that there isnt one
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Offline noidd

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6.2: Guidance for penalties not listed
« Reply #1 on: March 27, 2009, 01:12:54 am »
not all penalties are listed in the rules
just because one's not listed - doesnt mean that there isnt one

I assume you're refering to the preamble of 6.2:
The following penalties are addressed in detail in the sections listed below. These
sections hold specific examples that are to be followed explicitly. Illegal actions not
specified below must be enforced using these specifics as guiding examples.


Is that really a license to make up rules?
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Referees are not here to legislate, dictate, pontificate or participate.  We are there only to facilitate.

Offline mick hawkins

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6.2: Guidance for penalties not listed
« Reply #2 on: March 27, 2009, 01:50:20 am »
never said anything about making up rules - only calling penalties (that arent listed) based on the rules as written
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Offline noidd

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6.2: Guidance for penalties not listed
« Reply #3 on: March 27, 2009, 02:11:18 am »
never said anything about making up rules - only calling penalties (that arent listed) based on the rules as written

I guess I'm having a hard time understanding how we can define something as being a penalty if it's not listed in the rules.
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Offline Major Wood

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6.2: Guidance for penalties not listed
« Reply #4 on: March 27, 2009, 02:30:32 am »
The examples of a minor/major/no impact for each penalty are listed as guiding examples. If something doesn't quite match up, you are to use those guiding examples to assist you in yoyr decision. Most penalties however, are explicitly covered in those guiding examples.
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Offline mick hawkins

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6.2: Guidance for penalties not listed
« Reply #5 on: March 27, 2009, 02:37:16 am »
The examples of a minor/major/no impact for each penalty are listed as guiding examples. If something doesn't quite match up, you are to use those guiding examples to assist you in yoyr decision. Most penalties however, are explicitly covered in those guiding examples.

indeedy

it's usually just those painful situations that happen from time to time - that arent spelled out in the rules

eg... entire team refusing to come onto the track after a timeout
« Last Edit: March 27, 2009, 03:06:47 am by mick »
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Offline Stegoscorus

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6.2: Guidance for penalties not listed
« Reply #6 on: March 27, 2009, 03:48:08 am »
not all penalties are listed in the rules
just because one's not listed - doesnt mean that there isnt one

I assume you're refering to the preamble of 6.2:
The following penalties are addressed in detail in the sections listed below. These
sections hold specific examples that are to be followed explicitly. Illegal actions not
specified below must be enforced using these specifics as guiding examples.


Is that really a license to make up rules?


What they said, plus:
8.3.1.2  Referee discretion is intended ONLY to allow referees to keep the game safe, fair, and consistent in the event that an unexpected situation arises. Discretion does not allow referees to change rules.

The rule set is young and a work in progress.  6.2's preamble and 8.3.1 give us the room to keep things safe in the case of an unexpected action; 8.3.1.2 pulls in the reigns in the case that a ref tries to take that too far.

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Offline Noah Tall

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Re: 6.2: Guidance for penalties not listed
« Reply #7 on: June 02, 2009, 01:42:54 am »
The examples of a minor/major/no impact for each penalty are listed as guiding examples. If something doesn't quite match up, you are to use those guiding examples to assist you in yoyr decision. Most penalties however, are explicitly covered in those guiding examples.

indeedy

it's usually just those painful situations that happen from time to time - that arent spelled out in the rules

eg... entire team refusing to come onto the track after a timeout

Actually, that is in the rules :)

9.2.7.1.2  A team refuses to field skaters on the track to continue play.

The head ref calls a forfeit.
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Offline JoeXCore

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Re: 6.2: Guidance for penalties not listed
« Reply #8 on: June 02, 2009, 02:10:16 am »
That post was made before 4.0 was officially released.
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Offline Darkjester

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Re: 6.2: Guidance for penalties not listed
« Reply #9 on: June 02, 2009, 05:44:41 am »
But otherwise good catch on a change between 3.1 and 4.0 :-)
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Offline L8R SK8R

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Re: 6.2: Guidance for penalties not listed
« Reply #10 on: June 02, 2009, 05:33:17 pm »
not all penalties are listed in the rules
just because one's not listed - doesnt mean that there isnt one

I assume you're refering to the preamble of 6.2:
The following penalties are addressed in detail in the sections listed below. These
sections hold specific examples that are to be followed explicitly. Illegal actions not
specified below must be enforced using these specifics as guiding examples.


Is that really a license to make up rules?

[rule]5.1.3 A skater who is in play and stepping or skating (i.e. not down or at a standstill) may block or engage an opposing player at any time during the jam after their start whistle has blown.[/rule]

6.2 is used to find a penalty to issue to a skater who is blocking while standing still, for example. Some would argue that it should be considered Skating CW to Block, some would argue Out Of Play. The important part is that she must get a penalty for breaking the rules, and none of the penalty guidelines explain which penalty to give, so 6.2 instructs refs to use the best penalty designation based on the examples given.

Offline Noah Tall

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Re: 6.2: Guidance for penalties not listed
« Reply #11 on: June 02, 2009, 10:27:33 pm »
But otherwise good catch on a change between 3.1 and 4.0 :-)

I was just checking to make sure you guys were paying attention...


heh
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Offline Death by Roxy

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Re: 6.2: Guidance for penalties not listed
« Reply #12 on: June 04, 2009, 03:13:12 am »
This is exactly what I came to talk about.
Say a blocker is positionally blocking the opposing jammer when her skate (blockers) crosses the boundry so that she is now straddling the line.
Blocking out of bounds penalties all refer to contact and OOP penalties refer to outside the engagement zone.
My first instinct is to use the multi player block criteria for this call.
If the blocker impedes the jammer for less than 3 seconds its a minor blocking out of bounds, and a major if she impedes for more than 3 seconds.
Opinions?
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Offline mick hawkins

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Re: 6.2: Guidance for penalties not listed
« Reply #13 on: June 04, 2009, 03:30:38 am »
This is exactly what I came to talk about.
Say a blocker is positionally blocking the opposing jammer when her skate (blockers) crosses the boundry so that she is now straddling the line.
Blocking out of bounds penalties all refer to contact and OOP penalties refer to outside the engagement zone.
My first instinct is to use the multi player block criteria for this call.
If the blocker impedes the jammer for less than 3 seconds its a minor blocking out of bounds, and a major if she impedes for more than 3 seconds.
Opinions?


the rules for OOB blocking dont just refer to contact
"blocking" includes positional blocking

6.9.7 A skater who is straddling the line may not engage, block, or assist because she has one foot down outside the track boundary and is out of bounds by definition.

so...
Minor Penalty
6.9.15 Continuing a block after any part of the initiating Blocker is touching the ground outside the track boundary.

Major Penalty
6.9.18 Any contact or blocking from out of bounds that causes the receiving opposing skater to fall or lose her relative position.
6.9.19 Continuing a block which causes the receiving skater to fall where there is continued blocking contact past the point where any part of the initiating Blocker is touching out of bounds.


the rules cover measuring the impact of a skater positionally blocking while straddling the boundary


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Offline Death by Roxy

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Re: 6.2: Guidance for penalties not listed
« Reply #14 on: June 04, 2009, 03:48:45 am »
Thanks Mick.

6.9.7 A skater who is straddling the line may not engage, block, or assist because she has one foot down outside the track boundary and is out of bounds by definition.
I was writing up a rules quiz and intended to show this scenario as another BOB scenario but had a
brain fart moment as I knew 6.9.7 but, when I read the penalties over and over again I had the "continuation of contact" in my minds eye and couldn't see it LOL. It was driving me crazy. Sometimes I need someone else's eyes to see what's in front of me. Thanks.
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