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Author Topic: Skater fails to notice referee removing them from the box  (Read 11898 times)

Offline bjmacke

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Re: Skater fails to notice referee removing them from the box
« Reply #15 on: May 06, 2012, 04:25:58 pm »
I'm going to assume you aren't questioning my understanding of hand signals, and in kind I won't question yours. There's a difference between signaling a multi-minute penalty to a PBO and signaling to a skater that she should return to the track, and I'll leave it at that.

As for the original point of whether or not a PBO should stop timing an errant skater sitting in the box, my steadfast position is that it's a bad idea to do so. That's completely independent of any efforts and machinations we exert to convince her that she shouldn't be in the box. My reason for believing you shouldn't stop timing her is that, after 50 seconds, she's hopefully going to stand and that will free up the seat at that time. If you stop timing her then you can't know when that failsafe will happen.

So I hope that's a decent excuse for why you shouldn't stop timing an errant skater. I'd really love to understand why it's a good idea to stop timing her, because I'm not seeing one.
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Offline The Gorram Reaver

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Re: Skater fails to notice referee removing them from the box
« Reply #16 on: May 06, 2012, 05:46:36 pm »
I'd really love to understand why it's a good idea to stop timing her, because I'm not seeing one.

Because if she has reported to the box in error & you are not timing her penalty, that seat is available and one of her teammates may sit in it.  You don't need to, and should not, wait for the skater who reported in error to stand because she's not supposed to be there, so you're not timing her and she can leave whenever she chooses.
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Offline Stegoscorus

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Re: Skater fails to notice referee removing them from the box
« Reply #17 on: May 06, 2012, 06:45:53 pm »
I gotta say, I'm on the side of timing anyone and everyone who sits in the box.  If you didn't need to after all, no harm done, eh? 

It's not a PBO's job to figure out whether she should be there and why.  If the box is receiving communication to release her, obviously pay attention to it and be as sure as you can before taking any action.  But Lordisa, start timing her first.

This opinion comes directly from experiencing a PBO who thought a skater chose to sit in the box because she was injured (the medics ran over to check on her due to whatever hit had happened right before that).  But she was, in fact, serving a penalty, and when the jam ended, no one had any idea how long she'd served.  If she was addressing an injury in the box, that would be wackadoo indeed.  But why not time her just in case?
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Offline Darkjester

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Re: Skater fails to notice referee removing them from the box
« Reply #18 on: May 06, 2012, 09:18:18 pm »
I actually agree with Stego on this one.

Best case scenario, the refs get the PBO/Skaters attention and get the skater out of the box.

Worst case scenario the skater spends up to a 1 minute in the box anyways if nobody notices.
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Offline The Gorram Reaver

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Re: Skater fails to notice referee removing them from the box
« Reply #19 on: May 07, 2012, 01:03:43 am »
I gotta say, I'm on the side of timing anyone and everyone who sits in the box.  If you didn't need to after all, no harm done, eh?  

It's not a PBO's job to figure out whether she should be there and why.  If the box is receiving communication to release her, obviously pay attention to it and be as sure as you can before taking any action.  But Lordisa, start timing her first.

This opinion comes directly from experiencing a PBO who thought a skater chose to sit in the box because she was injured (the medics ran over to check on her due to whatever hit had happened right before that).  But she was, in fact, serving a penalty, and when the jam ended, no one had any idea how long she'd served.  If she was addressing an injury in the box, that would be wackadoo indeed.  But why not time her just in case?

So, if you're a PBO and you're timing a Jammer's penalty, and the other Jammer approaches the box to serve a penalty despite the fact that her Jammer Ref is signaling her to remain on the track, you would release the first Jammer?  Or when that Jammer leaves the box without being directed because you, as the PBO, saw the opposing Jammer Ref signal the second Jammer to remain on the track, would you act as if the first Jammer's penalty is not ending?

Remember, the original post was not a question about what should be done when we think a skater might have reported to the box in error, it was a question of what can be done when it is completely clear that the skater is reporting in error.  Would any of you honestly hold a skater in the box when a referee is clearly directing that skater to return to the track?  And if so, why?  And if you wouldn't prevent the skater from leaving the box because it is clear an official is directing her back to the track, why would you time a penalty instead of telling her you are not timing her penalty because she is being directed back to the track?
« Last Edit: May 07, 2012, 01:36:48 am by The Gorram Reaver »
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Offline bjmacke

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Re: Skater fails to notice referee removing them from the box
« Reply #20 on: May 07, 2012, 03:00:27 am »
Just to reiterate - starting a timer and trying to correct an errant trip to the box are independent actions. You time the skater as if she belongs there as a precaution in the event she actually does belong there and the infield ref is actually in error. Heresy, I know, but consider this scenario:

Black 26 reports to the box and takes a seat, the PBO starts timing her penalty. On the infield the call goes out of "why is black 26 in the box?" and no one knows why so an IPR or the HR starts motioning for her to come back on the track. The PBO notices this and tells black 26, "I think the IPR is trying to get your attention." She acknowledges this and remains in the box. The IPR/HR persists and either continues to signal to her to return to the track, or even skates to the box to tell her she doesn't have a penalty.

Meanwhile, in corner two, an OPR is relaying a back block minor to the OWB who then relays it to the infield. The wrangler (or PT) calls it as her fourth minor.

Turns out she didn't report to the box in error, she did it pre-emptively because she knew the back block was her fourth minor. So does the PBO start timing her penalty at the moment her butt hit the seat or when we, as a ref crew, figure out she actually belonged there?
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Offline The Gorram Reaver

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Re: Skater fails to notice referee removing them from the box
« Reply #21 on: May 07, 2012, 04:10:10 am »
Turns out she didn't report to the box in error, she did it pre-emptively because she knew the back block was her fourth minor. So does the PBO start timing her penalty at the moment her butt hit the seat or when we, as a ref crew, figure out she actually belonged there?

Believe or not, I'm going to go with "No, because she shouldn't be there."  Skaters are not in the box until directed there by a referee.  If a skater removes herself from play for what she believes will be her fourth minor, she is not being "extra helpful", she's creating administrative problems that take our time & attention away from all the other things we're supposed to be doing.  And if it turns out to never actually be her fourth minor (it wasn't her penalty, it wasn't her fourth, etc.) she's there for no reason.  Honestly, I've had to deal with trying to figure out why a skater is in the box because somebody thought, incorrectly, they were getting themselves off for their fourth minor too many times to advocate that a skater should report to the box & sit in a seat any time other than when a referee is directing her to do so.  And I also think that, as a ref, if I signal a skater to return to the track and she fails to do so, it is well within reason for me to ask her if she is removing herself from the jam, because until someone directs her to the penalty box, that is exactly what she is doing - removing herself from play.

I'm not saying running a timer as a precautionary measure while that skater is seated isn't a wise course of action.  But I also very firmly believe the skater should be told that her penalty is not being timed because a referee is directing her to return to the track.  That way, if another skater from her team arrives the new skater can be told there is a seat available because (again) I'm not timing a penalty for the skater who is sitting there.

I guess I'm just so surprised to hear that there are those who don't think the penalty box staff should be working to assist the referees in communicating with a skater that she has not been sent to the box when a referee is very clearly indicating a skater should return to play.  We're all a crew, one big happy officiating team, and if we don't work together and help each other, we're only going to wind up creating more problems than helping each other find solutions.
The Gorram Reaver
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Offline HIM-roid

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Re: Skater fails to notice referee removing them from the box
« Reply #22 on: May 07, 2012, 04:31:44 am »
I agree Reaver, the PBO should relay to the skater that the referee is motioning you back to the track. Even if she was suppose to report to the box due to a late reported penalty, the skater was RELEASED BY AN OFFICIAL, so no further penalties on that skater. That is a ref screw up and of course a skater isn't liable for an officials mistake. Of course this would be discussed in an OTO as to why the skater went to the box. I know if I sent her, I would ask why she was released? If I was the one who released her, I would own up to it and say I released her, so that was my mistake, apologize to the OPR and then send the skater back to the penalty box to serve her time. As you stated, WE are a TEAM. We are not perfect and we are going to make mistakes, but we also have the luxury of calling an OTO and get the situation straightened out. As for the penalty being reported late, well, there are numerous reasons why it could have happened. I know I have called multiple majors as an OPR and had to track a skater down to get her to remove herself off the track, which can take a lap or two and I didn't have the luxury to stop and drop off the penalty and the OWB didn't hear me as I dropped it off as I was skating by. I am sure their are other reasons why this could happen, I can only speak of the one situation that I have experienced.
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Offline Stegoscorus

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Re: Skater fails to notice referee removing them from the box
« Reply #23 on: May 07, 2012, 04:38:55 am »
I guess I'm just so surprised to hear that there are those who don't think the penalty box staff should be working to assist the referees in communicating with a skater that she has not been sent to the box when a referee is very clearly indicating a skater should return to play.  We're all a crew, one big happy officiating team, and if we don't work together and help each other, we're only going to wind up creating more problems than helping each other find solutions.

I don't think anyone's saying that at all.  We're saying 1. Skater sits, 2. Start watch, 3. Look up and see ref is signalling something at you.  If a ref is definitely signalling for her to return to the track, assist with that process.   
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Offline bjmacke

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Re: Skater fails to notice referee removing them from the box
« Reply #24 on: May 08, 2012, 12:23:00 am »
Part of the reason for hashing this stuff out in (semi-)public places like Zebra Huddle and the WFTDA board is to try and find common ground on how to handle these kinds of scenarios. For me, I'm trying to better understand everyone's position is that if I am in a position of training a new PBO; they need to know how to handle this. And when they ask me for clarification on why things are done a certain way, it's very helpful to give them a reasonable explanation.

As of right now the only consensus on when you're supposed to stop timing a skater is if they fail to stand at 50 seconds. This is reasonable and makes sense because a PBO/PBM is making it very clear to them that if they don't stand that their time will not expire. Our underlying reason why is that it ensures that both teams are aware that a skater has less than ten seconds left on their penalty. To sit for the full 60 gives one team an unfair advantage because of the element of surprise.

Also remember that we, as officials, do not tell skaters to exit the box. This is very clear in the verbal cues, and it makes sense because we aren't telling skaters to do anything. At all. Refs do have the ability to direct a skater to return to the track, but even that's not telling them to do anything because we don't have an "or else" attached to it. Skaters returning to their benches intimate to the ref crew that they're taking themselves out of play, but the penalty box isn't the bench so reporting to the penalty box is not the act of taking themselves out of play.

So in the back of my head, as I imagine the operation of telling a skater she has no penalty and she's not being timed; then what? We'd suggested that this allows us to free up a spot for another skater, but where do you put her? Of course this then bleeds back into the first comment about skaters who don't stand. Do we do the same thing for those recalcitrant skaters?
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Offline The Gorram Reaver

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Re: Skater fails to notice referee removing them from the box
« Reply #25 on: May 08, 2012, 04:00:02 pm »
o in the back of my head, as I imagine the operation of telling a skater she has no penalty and she's not being timed; then what? We'd suggested that this allows us to free up a spot for another skater, but where do you put her? Of course this then bleeds back into the first comment about skaters who don't stand. Do we do the same thing for those recalcitrant skaters?

You've told her she is not being timed.  What she does with that information is her responsibility.  Just as if you tell her that her penalty is done, or if you tell her you're not timing her penalty because she has failed to sit when she should be sitting or stand when she should be standing.  And eventually (hopefully very soon), the ref signaling her to return to the track should come over to the penalty box and tell her "[Color], [Number], return to the track, you have not been directed to the penalty box"; and if after being directly told that by a referee the skater still remains in the penalty box, the referee's very next words should be "[Color], [Number], are you removing yourself from play?"  And if she doesn't immediately return to play the referee should determine that she has removed herself from play and cannot return to the jam, and inform the Head Ref and the opposing Jammer Ref that she has removed herself from play.  Ideally, the ref doing this would also tell the box staff that the skater is not serving a penalty, she has removed herself from the jam and may not return to play.  At that point, she can be anywhere she wants as long as she's not on the track and not interfering with the jam in progress or the officials in any way.
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Offline SeerSin

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Re: Skater fails to notice referee removing them from the box
« Reply #26 on: May 08, 2012, 05:41:39 pm »
A skater mistakenly taking herself to the box is not "removing herself from play". The reality is refs don't have time to leave the pack, skate to the box and directly inform a skater she needs to return to play. It's "color, #, return to the track" with the proper hand signal, repeat a couple times but don't let it distract from reffing the game. If she's still there at the end of the jam go get her, otherwise she'll return to play after one minute assuming the penalty timer doesn't see the ref waving her back on the track. The ref that called the penalty does need to ensure the trackers know it was a minor.

Mistaken box trips most frequently happen with newer skaters, those leagues who don't have the benefit of referees at their scrimmage practices, or due to miscommunication from referees. If it happens frequently it's reasonable for the head ref to take a quick official time out to address it with captains and the referees. Issuing any further penalty is overcalling, she's already been mistakenly penalized, let's not make it worse.

Offline The Gorram Reaver

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Re: Skater fails to notice referee removing them from the box
« Reply #27 on: May 08, 2012, 09:31:08 pm »
A skater mistakenly taking herself to the box is not "removing herself from play". The reality is refs don't have time to leave the pack, skate to the box and directly inform a skater she needs to return to play. It's "color, #, return to the track" with the proper hand signal, repeat a couple times but don't let it distract from reffing the game. If she's still there at the end of the jam go get her, otherwise she'll return to play after one minute assuming the penalty timer doesn't see the ref waving her back on the track. The ref that called the penalty does need to ensure the trackers know it was a minor.

Mistaken box trips most frequently happen with newer skaters, those leagues who don't have the benefit of referees at their scrimmage practices, or due to miscommunication from referees. If it happens frequently it's reasonable for the head ref to take a quick official time out to address it with captains and the referees. Issuing any further penalty is overcalling, she's already been mistakenly penalized, let's not make it worse.

For blockers, yes, that's not an inappropriate interpretation, although if I'm an OPR I'm inclined to continue my attempt to remove the skater from the box & let the other two OPRs shift their positioning accordingly because this is what we are taught to do on my crew - communicate with a skater until it is clear she has received & understands your communication.  I don't think it's unrealistic to follow this for all communication to a skater, not just those times when you're trying to remove her from play for a major penalty.

Likewise, if I'm a Jammer Ref, and my Jammer is not responding to the direction to remove herself from the box, you can make damned sure I'm not going to stop talking to her until I find out exactly what is going on because there are far too many problems associated with just ignoring the fact that she's ignoring me.
The Gorram Reaver
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Offline Darkjester

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Re: Skater fails to notice referee removing them from the box
« Reply #28 on: May 09, 2012, 11:55:06 am »
Really the only 'wrong' answer here is to issue a IP or Insubordination penalty.

Timing vs. Not-Timing are still right answers, it just depends which makes more sense and is preferred by the HR of the bout. The intent and result is the same 'get the skater out of the box and back in the game .'

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Offline Arithmetrix

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Re: Skater fails to notice referee removing them from the box
« Reply #29 on: May 09, 2012, 07:09:07 pm »
I really appreciate this thread as I honestly had not thought of this issue before and am looking to explore scenarios with our penalty box crew this week.

After reading this discussion I would lean towards having the PB timers start a stopwatch for the skater but tell her she is not being timed - that way her attention is brought to the situation without spelling it out explicitly, while removing the possibility of her serving far more than a normal penalty on top of the mistake. Of course, that is by its very nature dishonest so I'm not sure I am leaning in the right direction.  I will speak to our head ref about it.

 

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