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Author Topic: Skater fails to notice referee removing them from the box  (Read 10955 times)

Offline ShoNuff

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Skater fails to notice referee removing them from the box
« on: April 30, 2012, 05:23:54 am »
A skater arrives at box and is seated.

A referee is clearly visible to the box staff waving her back onto the track and telling her she has reported in error.  The skater is not paying attention to the referee and clearly has not realized she is being directed to return to the track.

Is it appropriate for the penalty box staff to cease timing her since they know she has not earned a penalty and then inform her that they are not timing her penalty since she does not have one?


We were positive she did not owe time in the box, but weren't sure if informing her that she could leave would be seen as a reasonable repetition of the referee's directions or if her failure to pay attention to the bout would mean that our prompting her would be moving into the realm of coaching the skater.  As it was, we didn't say anything and it wasn't until several other members of her team were yelling to get her attention that she finally looked up and realized what was going on.

With the directions to the skater being very clear both in the hand signals and in the vocals from the referee, was the skater receiving all the direction she reasonably had a right to and any further direction would be coaching?

If it would have been coaching in this situation, is there a case where the communication from the referee is less clear that it would become reasonable for the bench staff to inform the skater that they do not owe penalty time and have reported in error?

Offline Insane Troll Logic

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Re: Skater fails to notice referee removing them from the box
« Reply #1 on: April 30, 2012, 07:04:45 am »
Is it appropriate for the penalty box staff to cease timing her since they know she has not earned a penalty and then inform her that they are not timing her penalty since she does not have one?

Yes, just like I would tell a skater that I had stopped timing her penalty if she didn't stand, a skater in the penalty box always has the right to know when she is not being timed and why. But what I'd actually do is get her attention and point her to the ref.
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Offline Darkjester

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Re: Skater fails to notice referee removing them from the box
« Reply #2 on: April 30, 2012, 01:04:15 pm »
I wouldn't say "Go back on the track"  as that could be considered coaching.
But I'm totally with  ITL on direction her attention to the Referee directing her back onto the track.
I 'might' say , if it were clear to me "I'm not timing you, you are not serving a penalty."  As that is not telling the skater 'what' to do, only what you are doing or in this case, not doing.
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Offline Eject You Later

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Re: Skater fails to notice referee removing them from the box
« Reply #3 on: April 30, 2012, 01:18:30 pm »
In the few times in which I was unable to get a skater's attention to return to the track, I have gone to the penalty box directly and told her she is released.

I would greatly prefer, for both the expediency and for my not having to skate from the infield to the penalty box, that the box staff releases her.

As to what to say... The referee verbal cue is, "Color/number, return to the track."  I see no reason why the penalty box staff are unable to repeat this.

The only caveat to this should be obvious... make sure you verify which skater is supposed to return.  :)  Maybe point to the skater first, receive the nod, then release her.
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Offline SeerSin

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Re: Skater fails to notice referee removing them from the box
« Reply #4 on: April 30, 2012, 03:58:03 pm »
Instructing a skater to stay/return to the track is in the Verbal Cues document, it's not coaching.

Offline ShoNuff

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Re: Skater fails to notice referee removing them from the box
« Reply #5 on: April 30, 2012, 04:22:19 pm »
The problem that's nagging me on this is that if a skater does not pay attention to a command to report the penalty box, eventually I didn't hear you ceases to be an excuse and an insubordination is going to be issued.  Yes, referees give the skater a lot of chances to hear and respond to the command, but there reaches a point where it goes from worth another repetition of the command to the skater has had every chance that can be reasonably granted and allowing them to continue to disobey the command represents an illegal advantage to her team.

My concern is that in the situation here, the skater has ignored communications that are obvious enough that she is the only person anywhere near her that has not clearly heard the command.  If ignoring the command was penalizable by an insubordination, the referee would have been more than justified in issuing the penalty to prevent her from seizing an illegal advantage for her team.  But her failing to respond to the command gave her opponents an advantage rather than her team.  Am I improperly taking that advantage away from her opponents by trying to find more ways to let her know she is being oblivious to an important command that is beneficial to her and her team rather than one that is detrimental.

Or am I vastly over thinking this situation and I should be just focussing on referee is trying to communicate with skater, skater is oblivious, echo the communication from closer in so skater hears it.

Offline Stegoscorus

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Re: Skater fails to notice referee removing them from the box
« Reply #6 on: April 30, 2012, 05:01:15 pm »
Eh, I wouldn't go that far.  Insubordination is for failure to comply with an official's instructions.  Yes, I guess "return to the track" is an instruction, but it's more about communicating information with the skater (you don't have a penalty/that was a minor) than a need for her to do something.  If she doesn't return to the track, the impact is that her team is skating needlessly short.  That's not something we penalize, or really give a hoot about, so Insubordination isn't appropriate here.

I'm with the others, if you're positive of what the ref is signalling, go ahead and release her from the box with the standard verbal cue (Return to the Track).

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Offline Darkjester

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Re: Skater fails to notice referee removing them from the box
« Reply #7 on: April 30, 2012, 06:25:09 pm »
I'm with Stego and others.. No need to issue a Insubordination.. Her team is already skating down, and she's already a NOTT point; so in that aspect her team is already being punished for her not returning to the track. You (generalized you not specific) have already instructed her at this point "You are not being times as there is no penalty." So if another skater comes that maxes the penalty cap, you can instruct her again.

I'm with Eject, I too have had to physically skate from infield to PB to tell the skater she wasn't supposed to be there because she didn't catch the "Return to the Track" direction.

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Offline ShoNuff

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Re: Skater fails to notice referee removing them from the box
« Reply #8 on: April 30, 2012, 06:51:35 pm »
I wasn't advocating an insubordination penalty I was trying to create an analogy that at this point I'm thinking I can confdiently say was not a good analogy.

And I think the answer I'm looking for is that I'm thinking way to hard on this and creating a problem that doesn't exist.  So I'll quit trying to create a problem in order to justify a solution.

Thank you all for kicking me out of the little mental loop I'd talked myself into.   :)

Offline bjmacke

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Re: Skater fails to notice referee removing them from the box
« Reply #9 on: May 01, 2012, 01:03:04 am »
My instinct would be to be agnostic on the skating officials insistence that she return to the track. The "return to the track" signal is directed at the skater, not the PBO.

The problem that arises with focusing on this errant skater in the box is that it's a distraction to treat her differently than any other person reporting to the box. If she sits a minute for a penalty that didn't exist, that's really not our concern. If she screams bloody murder because she wasted a minute in the box; the onus was on her for ignoring a verbal and visual cue from a skating official.

Harsh, sure, but the alternative leads me to worry about wasting cycles on a skater that's really not breaking any rules nor creating an unfair advantage for her team.
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Offline Stegoscorus

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Re: Skater fails to notice referee removing them from the box
« Reply #10 on: May 01, 2012, 02:12:46 am »
Thank you all for kicking me out of the little mental loop I'd talked myself into.   :)

We all do that.   :P  Good job utilizing your team to bring you back to earth!

And a good trick for making sure you are both talking about the same skater, for any communication from the refs to the box, is to hold your hand over her head with a "?" look on your face.  I would think any ref would understand and respond with a nod or head shake.
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Offline Eject You Later

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Re: Skater fails to notice referee removing them from the box
« Reply #11 on: May 05, 2012, 06:58:47 pm »
The problem that arises with focusing on this errant skater in the box is that it's a distraction to treat her differently than any other person reporting to the box.

Why has she reported to the box in error?  Was it because an official issued a major and then either had their call over turned, or over turned their own call?  Was it because 2 calls were made very close together, so the skater heard a whistle from another official, but then heard her number called and left the track?  Was it because the official was very loud in the minor call and, not wanting to pick up an insubordination, the skater simply left the track?

The reason she is treated differently than any other skater reporting to the box is that she is doing so in error.  She should not be there.

Quote
Harsh, sure, but the alternative leads me to worry about wasting cycles on a skater that's really not breaking any rules nor creating an unfair advantage for her team.

The problem is that she should not be in the penalty box.  By sitting in the box she is taking the seat that a penalized skater is unable to fill.  If she believes that she has been penalized (as opposed to quitting in the middle of the jam) then her team is being penalized, even inadvertently, for no reason.

Things happen.  Many skaters believe that if they do not go immediately to the box when a penalty is given to them that they will pick up a second minute for insubordination.  While that is not accurate, I also do not feel it is correct to let a skater "self report" to the penalty box if she does not have a penalty.  Mistakes happen and this is easy to correct.  If I am in the middle of calling penalties, defining the pack, etc, then it may take me 10-15 seconds to be able to pull her from the penalty box, but I'm going to pull her out.
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Offline bjmacke

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Re: Skater fails to notice referee removing them from the box
« Reply #12 on: May 05, 2012, 11:50:26 pm »
Understandable, though realize I'm speaking from a PBO perspective and not a ref. The OP asked the question of whether or not it'd be inappropriate to not time a skater in the box; and I would advise against such things because it would be treating that skater differently because you (as a PBO) think she should get treated differently.

When this has come up with me in the the past, I am inclined to time the skater and if the infield ref continues to signal to the skater in the box to verbally mention it to the skater ("Black 26, I think that ref is trying to get your attention...") but do not tell her to leave. If she and the ref figure out she doesn't belong there, then I'm more than happy to wipe the slate and not insist she left early.

The worst case scenario would be that if the PBO got confused and released a skater that belonged there. That's the more dangerous outcome because a skater won't serve her full penalty time because we screwed up. The alternative, a skater who doesn't belong there who isn't on the track due to her own error; that doesn't seem as bad in comparison.
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Offline FNZebra

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Re: Skater fails to notice referee removing them from the box
« Reply #13 on: May 06, 2012, 12:36:20 am »
The worst case scenario would be that if the PBO got confused and released a skater that belonged there. That's the more dangerous outcome because a skater won't serve her full penalty time because we screwed up. The alternative, a skater who doesn't belong there who isn't on the track due to her own error; that doesn't seem as bad in comparison.

If a PBO instructs a skater to leave, there is no additional penalty tacked on, per 6.13.25. But the PBM can still have that skater report for the rest of the original penalty to be served. Ungood, but recoverable; it should only happen when a ref is frantically signalling for that skater to be returned, though, and the PB crew has confirmed it should be that skater who is to be released. Then the PB crew is absolved of guilt.  :)
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Offline Eject You Later

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Re: Skater fails to notice referee removing them from the box
« Reply #14 on: May 06, 2012, 12:42:02 am »
The OP asked the question of whether or not it'd be inappropriate to not time a skater in the box; and I would advise against such things because it would be treating that skater differently because you (as a PBO) think she should get treated differently.

Question:  How do you know how long to time her penalty, if you aren't looking at the referee that sent her to the box?

If she has a 2 minute penalty to serve, the referee is going to be doing the proper hand signal at the penalty box staff.  Are you suggesting that the penalty box staff treat her as a regular 1 minute penalty and release her after a minute?  Or are you going to treat her differently because of what the referee is communicating to you?

I assume you will time her for 2 minutes.  I fail to see any difference between that and releasing her if she has gone to the box in error, and the referee is communicating that to you.
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