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Author Topic: Extra Pivot not caught during jam  (Read 5714 times)

Offline Kent C. Forshette

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Extra Pivot not caught during jam
« on: May 07, 2012, 06:52:18 pm »
Had a scrimmage with another league last night (my fourth, I've never bouted) with other greenish refs. Probably because I'm a rules nerd, I became default HR.

A jam started with one white pivot (A) in the penalty box, and another (B) at the pivot line. Noone noticed. The jam started, and mid-way through, (A) skated out of the box. Black team realized / started yelling there were two white pivots on the track. No refs rectified this, and Jam was called after two minutes. Black captain called a time out to point this out, and I called an OTO.

I know that the wording of 6.13.7 is treated as if it says:

[rule]6.13.7  More than one designated Pivot for a team on the track after the starting whistle. The penalty is issued to the Pivot who was the last Pivot to enter the track in that jam. If the referee is unable to determine the last Pivot to enter the track, the referee issuing the illegal procedure must penalize the Pivot on the track closest to the referee who calls the penalty. After the whistle, the referee must instruct her to return to her bench [AS] if she is an extra skater on the track (see Section 6.13.6). Any Pivot starting in the penalty box is the designated Pivot for that jam.[/rule]

Emphasized extra word "[AS]" is mine, added because that's what the consensus and old WFTDA clarification seem to be. Looking through past threads on this, the three options I see are:

1.) No penalty, as SeerSin suggests at the end of this thread (http://www.zebrahuddle.com/index.php?topic=2165.15):
Got it, in that case the points stay, admit the error and move on, it happens. The only time a major is issued for too many skaters(or pivots) on the track is if the jam is called for that reason. If the jam went to its natural conclusion I would not issue a penalty.
2.) Issue a minor to B, as Cliquework suggests in this thread (http://www.zebrahuddle.com/index.php?topic=2343.0)
I would issue the minor. Jam wasn't called, so no major, but there was verifiably too many skaters (pivots). Figure out who and give the minor to them.
...
3.) Do what I did at the time: Issue a major to B, for too many skaters that seriously affected game play.

I now think I was incorrect, but I'm still not sure what should have been done.
« Last Edit: May 07, 2012, 08:07:01 pm by Kent C. Forshette »
Kent C. Forshette
Cedar Rapids RollerGirls
Ref Coord and WFTDA officials rep

Offline Eject You Later

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Re: Extra Pivot not caught during jam
« Reply #1 on: May 07, 2012, 07:29:18 pm »
Since you did not end up with 2 pivots in the penalty box, which is what Cliquework's scenario was, and which means that unless something is done both pivots will be in the next jam, I would go with option 1:  Admit the mistake, can't really fix it, go on to the next jam.
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Offline SeerSin

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Re: Extra Pivot not caught during jam
« Reply #2 on: May 07, 2012, 07:48:05 pm »
If the refs realize there's an extra  pivot on the track and send her off that pivot should receive a minor illegal procedure.

Offline Kent C. Forshette

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Re: Extra Pivot not caught during jam
« Reply #3 on: May 07, 2012, 08:11:25 pm »
Ah. At first I figured Cliquework's scenario was close enough to mine to be analogous (two verifiable pivots on the track). But I hadn't thought of the difference that you caught, Eject: if nothing was done to resolve the situation Cliquework was addressing, then there would be trouble in the next jam.

Thanks!
Kent C. Forshette
Cedar Rapids RollerGirls
Ref Coord and WFTDA officials rep

Offline HIM-roid

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Re: Extra Pivot not caught during jam
« Reply #4 on: May 07, 2012, 08:25:31 pm »
A thing I tell my OPR's to do is to count the skaters from each team while they are lining up and check the PB for skaters and helmet covers. The IPR's are usually kind of busy in between jams plus this keeps the OPR's focused on the game and aware of who is starting in the box. Since you say you have a green ref crew, this maybe something you want to have them start doing. When I OPR, I still do it regardless of what position I start in.
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Offline Major Masochist

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Re: Extra Pivot not caught during jam
« Reply #5 on: May 07, 2012, 09:00:34 pm »
If the refs realize there's an extra  pivot on the track and send her off that pivot should receive a minor illegal procedure.


This is how I would handle it
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