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Author Topic: Jam Timer Scenarios  (Read 5079 times)

Offline Dead Ringer

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Jam Timer Scenarios
« on: May 19, 2012, 02:06:29 am »
All right y'all requesting some answers to some (possibly simple) scenarios.
1.  1st whistle releases blockers they lolygag around as some are want to do (strategy), when are the jammers released:
     a.  when the last blocker on the pivot lines hips are past the line and a skate is still touching behind the line?
     b.  when the last blocker on the pivot lines hips are past the line and a skate is behind the line but not touching the ground?

I have been releasing the jammers in both scenarios (a) and (b) using the hips crossing the pivot line as my que.
   
2.  1st whistle is blown releasing blockers and they move past the pivot line (bridgeing if you will) and the head ref hand signals and verbally states the pack is here but there is still a blocker behind the pivot line some refs have told me to release on that verbal que and others have stated to wait untill the blocker passes the pivot line unless there is a no pack stated.

I wait for the ref to say no pack in most other scenarios as the teams strategies are to kneel at the jammer lines as it states in the rules manual.

Please advise on the above scenarios, thanks in advance

Offline ShoNuff

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Re: Jam Timer Scenarios
« Reply #1 on: May 19, 2012, 04:53:58 am »
Position for jam timer is based on contact with the track.  They aren't passing the line like a player passing another player.

So 1b would be a correct jammer release, 1a would not be.  But in 1b, it doesn't matter where the skater's hips are. If she is in contact with the track past the line and not also in contact with the track behind it, then she is past the line.

For scenario 2 it all depends upon whether any member of the pack is behind the pivot line.  If the pack is indicated to only include skaters past the pivot line, then the jammers are released.  If one or more members of the pack are still behind the line, then the jammers are not released.

Offline Eject You Later

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Re: Jam Timer Scenarios
« Reply #2 on: May 19, 2012, 03:44:57 pm »
For scenario 2 it all depends upon whether any member of the pack is behind the pivot line.  If the pack is indicated to only include skaters past the pivot line, then the jammers are released.  If one or more members of the pack are still behind the line, then the jammers are not released.

To clarify, remember that the pack is defined as skaters within proximity, which is 10' measured by the hips.

So if you have 7 blockers in front of the pivot line, and the 8th blocker behind the pivot line, if the 8th blocker is more than 10 feet behind the nearest pack skater then she is not part of the pack.  Therefore it is correct to start the jammers:

[rule]4.4.2 Once the rearmost pack skater has crossed the Pivot line, the referee whistles the Jammers to begin their sprint through the pack with two short whistle blasts.[/rule]

Note that it specifically states, "rearmost pack skater" and not "all blockers."  If a blocker is not part of the pack then she is not a factor in releasing the jammers (unless she re-joins the pack before the jammers are released).
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Offline Bratty Cardia

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Re: Jam Timer Scenarios
« Reply #3 on: May 19, 2012, 05:30:48 pm »
This is why I like "Pack is across" as a cue to the jam timer. I ask the IPR doing pack definition to give me that cue to release the Jammers if there are still Blockers behind the Pivot Line. It's unambiguous official-official communication that can be used when the IPRs don't want the jam timer to do pack definition.
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Offline SilkenTofu

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Re: Jam Timer Scenarios
« Reply #4 on: May 21, 2012, 12:42:24 pm »
I like to think of it this way: you start the jammers when no part of pack is touching behind the pivot line.

So if one lone blocker (or a couple, or...whatever) is hanging out way behind the pack, they "don't count," (that is, they're not part of the pack) so you start the jammers when the pack has crossed.  If you have an obvious pack, and everyone's crossed except for the last skater whose rear wheels are still touching behind the pivot line: a part of the pack is still touching behind the line, so you don't start them yet.

A couple other common questions:

If skaters come out of the penalty box and become part of the pack, they "count" (as long as they've made it into the pack before the pack crosses the line).

A popular misconception: let's say almost all of the pack has crossed, but skater A is hanging out behind the pivot line.  Skater B skates back to join her, then skater A crosses the line.  The jammer start whistle should not be blown until skater B crosses the line again, even though she's already crossed it once--a part of the pack is still touching behind the line.  Basically, you don't care who those skates are attached to, just that they're part of the pack, and behind the line.
« Last Edit: May 21, 2012, 02:02:27 pm by SilkenTofu »
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Offline Dead Ringer

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Re: Jam Timer Scenarios
« Reply #5 on: May 24, 2012, 06:19:00 pm »
Thanks to everyone who responded. Very helpful. Love this site.

Offline Two Bit Score

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Re: Jam Timer Scenarios
« Reply #6 on: May 24, 2012, 07:23:13 pm »
This is why I like "Pack is across" as a cue to the jam timer. I ask the IPR doing pack definition to give me that cue to release the Jammers if there are still Blockers behind the Pivot Line. It's unambiguous official-official communication that can be used when the IPRs don't want the jam timer to do pack definition.

I'm a fan of "Pack is here" and indicate the group in the front, or "Out of Pack" and indicate the skater, or group of skaters behind the line still.  *** Fun note! The term "Out of Pack" is defined in glossary for the 26 May 2010 rules, but is never used even once in the rules proper!***
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Offline LESBRO

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Re: Jam Timer Scenarios
« Reply #7 on: July 22, 2012, 04:26:47 am »
Quote
"A popular misconception: let's say almost all of the pack has crossed, but skater A is hanging out behind the pivot line.  Skater B skates back to join her, then skater A crosses the line.  The jammer start whistle should not be blown until skater B crosses the line again, even though she's already crossed it once--a part of the pack is still touching behind the line.  Basically, you don't care who those skates are attached to, just that they're part of the pack, and behind the line."

We had this happen in practice... a group of skaters would cross the pivot line and then retreat behind it for position... I was trying to track the "last of the original pack to cross the pivot line" and was told that when the final person did, I should release the jammers.  It was hard to keep an eye on who was who in the shuffle.  So, are you saying that as long as I keep an eye on "the pack" and wait for the last member of the pack to cross the pivot line (no matter how many players "swirl" in front and then in back of the pivot line), *that's* when I release the jammers?  That makes more sense as I think about it... but I wanted to make sure I had this right.

Thanks for clarification!

Prairie Nyx (LESBRO)

Offline The Gorram Reaver

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Re: Jam Timer Scenarios
« Reply #8 on: July 22, 2012, 07:13:09 am »
We had this happen in practice... a group of skaters would cross the pivot line and then retreat behind it for position... I was trying to track the "last of the original pack to cross the pivot line" and was told that when the final person did, I should release the jammers.  It was hard to keep an eye on who was who in the shuffle.  So, are you saying that as long as I keep an eye on "the pack" and wait for the last member of the pack to cross the pivot line (no matter how many players "swirl" in front and then in back of the pivot line), *that's* when I release the jammers?  That makes more sense as I think about it... but I wanted to make sure I had this right.

Yes, PrairieLes  ;), that is exactly what it means.

[rule]4.4.2
Once the rearmost pack skater has crossed the Pivot line, the referee whistles the Jammers to begin their sprint through the pack with two short whistle blasts. Jammers may not be accelerating at the Jammer starting whistle. They are, however, permitted to be moving, coasting or braking.[/rule]  [Note: italics mine.]

By specifying "rearmost pack skater", the rules tell us it doesn't matter what individual skaters do, it matters what the pack does, because the status of "rearmost pack skater" is not tied to individual skaters (as Pivot and Jammer are), but can be held by any pack skater at any time depending upon where they are in relation to other pack skaters.  So, until all pack skaters are in front of the Pivot line (or there is a No Pack situation), the Jammers should not be started.
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Offline watzé

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Re: Jam Timer Scenarios
« Reply #9 on: October 02, 2012, 09:41:28 am »
I just need a clarification, in the section:

4.4.2
Once the rearmost pack skater has crossed the Pivot line, the referee whistles the Jammers to begin their sprint through the pack with two short whistle blasts. Jammers may not be accelerating at the Jammer starting whistle. They are, however, permitted to be moving, coasting or braking.

That's mean, the JT call the beginning of the jam and then it's the referee who blow?
I don't think I ever see that. Usually it's the JT who call the begenning of the pack AND (after) the jammers.

In WFTDA tournament, the jammers start was give by the IPR?
Watzé

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Offline Riff Reff

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Re: Jam Timer Scenarios
« Reply #10 on: October 02, 2012, 11:41:03 am »
No, it is practice that the Jam Timer does that, also at Big5 tournaments. It is very likely that the wording changes in the next rule set.
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Offline DocSkinner

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Re: Jam Timer Scenarios
« Reply #11 on: October 03, 2012, 04:49:59 am »
This is why I like "Pack is across" as a cue to the jam timer.

I'm a fan of "Pack is here" and indicate the group in the front, or "Out of Pack" and indicate the skater, or group of skaters behind the line still.

When I am Jam Timing for an unfamiliar ref crew I always ask the pack refs if they have a special verbalization for this situation. I usually get met with blank stares and have to explain that a "Pack is here" call doesn't help me since I am usually looking at skater wheels and not ref hands. If I hear "Pack is front" I can glance up to make sure that the rearmost pack skater is over the line.  And "Pack is rear" is fine. But "Pack is here" doesn't give me enough to go on.

Offline GENERAL JUSTICE

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Re: Jam Timer Scenarios
« Reply #12 on: October 03, 2012, 11:04:09 am »
This is why I like "Pack is across" as a cue to the jam timer.

I'm a fan of "Pack is here" and indicate the group in the front, or "Out of Pack" and indicate the skater, or group of skaters behind the line still.

When I am Jam Timing for an unfamiliar ref crew I always ask the pack refs if they have a special verbalization for this situation. I usually get met with blank stares and have to explain that a "Pack is here" call doesn't help me since I am usually looking at skater wheels and not ref hands. If I hear "Pack is front" I can glance up to make sure that the rearmost pack skater is over the line.  And "Pack is rear" is fine. But "Pack is here" doesn't give me enough to go on.

I wont define the pack until it is reforming after a no pack (jammers released on no pack) or until the pack are over the pivot line. I think this is how most IP's call it. Therefore plenty of info for a JT.

Offline DocSkinner

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Re: Jam Timer Scenarios
« Reply #13 on: October 04, 2012, 12:05:42 am »
I guess I am misunderstanding you. It is possible for an "out of play" could be called without there being a "No pack" call, right?

The pack all skates forward except for one skater who stays behind. The pack eventually leaves her in an out-of-play position behind the pivot line. There is still a pack in front.

The refs then call "Pack is here" or "pack is front" or "pack is across" or whatever your IP ref prefers, as an indication that the rearmost pack skater has crossed the pivot line.  *Tweet* *Tweet*

So, as a JT I just want to know from the IPR what phrase they will use. I don't want to start the jammers when the IPR is defining the pack in the rear, since that lone blocker is still in the pack behind the pivot line.

EDIT: or are you saying you won't verbalize the pack at all until they are over the line? So you won't make any pack definition calls at all until after the jammers have started? That is fine for me, as it does avoid any possibilities of misunderstanding on my part.
« Last Edit: October 04, 2012, 12:08:50 am by DocSkinner »

Offline Megapickle

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Re: Jam Timer Scenarios
« Reply #14 on: October 04, 2012, 12:49:51 am »
EDIT: or are you saying you won't verbalize the pack at all until they are over the line?

Always do clarify with your IPRs, but yes, this is what I hear GJ saying, and it's how I do it. Pre-2nd whistle, if the pack is not all-inclusive and not across, I silently indicate them with the hand signal. Only once the pack is across, I announce to the JT, "Pack is here."

 

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