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Author Topic: Jumping... over the apex...  (Read 3932 times)

Offline calavas

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Jumping... over the apex...
« on: June 28, 2012, 01:01:48 pm »
Is there any infraction if - A player jumps across the apex without touching another opposing player and lands in bounds?

Is there any infraction if - A player can maintain forward momentum while performing a jump that causes the hips of that player to be positionally out of bounds while wheels are out of bounds touching teammate, but again, lands in bounds on the track?

These are not hypothetical, but it is not clear how a ruling, if any should be made if said jump were executed.

Thanks.

Offline ClockRoach

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Re: Jumping... over the apex...
« Reply #1 on: June 28, 2012, 01:11:11 pm »
Out of bounds is judged by whether the skates are contacting ground outside the track. If they haven't touched the ground, they're still in bounds.

The only time you measure anything based on hips is relative positions of skaters.

Offline Shaun Ketterman

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Re: Jumping... over the apex...
« Reply #2 on: June 28, 2012, 01:17:30 pm »
Is there any infraction if - A player jumps across the apex without touching another opposing player and lands in bounds?

No, this is completely legal.

Is there any infraction if - A player can maintain forward momentum while performing a jump that causes the hips of that player to be positionally out of bounds while wheels are out of bounds touching teammate, but again, lands in bounds on the track?

This one isn't written very clearly, but you judge in bounds versus out of bounds by the feet, not the hips.  Once a player jumps, if she was in bounds, her in bounds status is maintained until she lands and it changes accordingly.

[rule]6.8.9 If a skater jumps and ceases all contact with the ground, her prior in bounds/out of bounds status is maintained until contact with the ground re-establishes in bounds/out of bounds status.[/rule]  

If the player was touching the teammate before jumping, I wouldn't give a penalty for that.  If the player intiated contact with the teammate after jumping, I would give a misconduct.

[rule]6.15.3 Initiating contact with both skates off of the ground. Jumping and leaping contact is unsafe for the initiator and the receiver.[/rule]

Some people don't agree with a misconduct for this because it's between teammates, but I argue that the rule-as-written states "contact" which is different than a "block".  The definition of a block signifies that a block can only occure between opponents, while teammates are certainly capable of contacting each other.  I'd hope for an official ruling on this in the future, but for now it's going to differ from crew to crew so take that into account.
« Last Edit: June 28, 2012, 01:26:21 pm by Shaun Ketterman »
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Offline J. Ref K.

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Re: Jumping... over the apex...
« Reply #3 on: June 28, 2012, 03:23:41 pm »
If the player was touching the teammate before jumping, I wouldn't give a penalty for that.  If the player intiated contact with the teammate after jumping, I would give a misconduct.

[rule]6.15.3 Initiating contact with both skates off of the ground. Jumping and leaping contact is unsafe for the initiator and the receiver.[/rule]

While I understand this interpretation of the rule, what about a Misconduct based on sentence number 2 of 6.15.3?  For instance, if the Blocker was contacting the opponent and then jumped, lifting both herself and the receiving skater off the ground?  I ask because I've seen it happen and concurred with the assessment.   
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Offline Shaun Ketterman

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Re: Jumping... over the apex...
« Reply #4 on: June 28, 2012, 03:59:15 pm »
A literal and close reading of 6.15.3 would lead me to believe that it is legal to be touching someone and then jump and not be penalized.  The rule states that initiating contact with both feet off the ground is a penalty.  If the contact was previously initiated and continued after a jump began, I do not believe that 6.15.3 covers it as illegal.  

I have seen this done in MRDA play when a player puts a hand on a teammate's shoulder on the inside apex and then uses the leverage to increase an apex jump.  This is also what makes the "pegassist" a legal move.  I believe your scenario would follow suit if the contact was made before either player was airbourne, although I find it hard to believe a person could jump and physically pull someone else upwards with her.  I'd imagine what you saw was two players touching, then one jumped and shortly thereafter the other one did too.  
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Offline Stegoscorus

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Re: Jumping... over the apex...
« Reply #5 on: June 28, 2012, 04:04:58 pm »
Yes, whether or not you penalize contact with teammates that is initiated while airborne, it's legal to touch a teammate while on the ground and then maintain that contact while jumping. 

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Offline J. Ref K.

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Re: Jumping... over the apex...
« Reply #6 on: June 28, 2012, 06:12:30 pm »
I find it hard to believe a person could jump and physically pull someone else upwards with her.

The initiator of this maneuver was slightly crouched, with the opposing blocker slightly hovering over her back.  The initiator then jumped, lifting her opponent in the air and the initiating blocker also ceased contact with the ground (approx 1" jump).  It was a remarkable feat of strength (strength of feet?), to be honest.   To sum up, she didn't "pull" her opponent, she lifted her.

It could very well have been that the initiator left the ground a split second before contacting the opponent/receiver, however, and that I missed it from my angle on the outside (OPR). 
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Re: Jumping... over the apex...
« Reply #7 on: June 28, 2012, 07:52:11 pm »
The initiator of this maneuver was slightly crouched, with the opposing blocker slightly hovering over her back.  The initiator then jumped, lifting her opponent in the air and the initiating blocker also ceased contact with the ground (approx 1" jump).  It was a remarkable feat of strength (strength of feet?), to be honest.   To sum up, she didn't "pull" her opponent, she lifted her.

It could very well have been that the initiator left the ground a split second before contacting the opponent/receiver, however, and that I missed it from my angle on the outside (OPR).

If the contact was otherwise legal, I'd be inclined to go with no call.  The contact wasn't initiated while airbourne and if it was otherwise legal, I wouldn't be comfortable penalizing it.  I will fully admit that this is slightly informed by 9.3.4-6, as well as 6.15.3, but I don't like to break rules up and read and interpret them in fragments; I think that leads to misapplications.  Taken as a whole, this wasn't airbourne initiation and on those grounds not a strict violation of 6.15.3.

If on the other hand, the jumping player was airbourne when the initiation happened and your angle left you with an incomplete view, then it's a pretty clear cut misconduct.
« Last Edit: June 28, 2012, 07:58:43 pm by Shaun Ketterman »
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