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Author Topic: The Late Damned Fourth  (Read 26496 times)

Offline Professor Murder

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The Late Damned Fourth
« on: April 13, 2009, 03:29:28 pm »
I suspect we've all been there before.  20-25 seconds following the end of the previous jam: "Susie Q has four!"

GAH!  Susie Q's not in this jam!  Why couldn't you get this information to me faster?!?!?!?

I have my own thoughts on how to sort this situation out, but I want to get your input here before I open my mouth.
Philly Roller Girls
WFTDA Interim Games Officer
WFTDA Certified Referee: Level 5
"100% Less Dancing" - Dr. Vroom

Great Barrier Ref

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Re: The Late Damned Fourth
« Reply #1 on: April 13, 2009, 03:46:53 pm »
I suspect we've all been there before.  20-25 seconds following the end of the previous jam: "Susie Q has four!"

GAH!  Susie Q's not in this jam!  Why couldn't you get this information to me faster?!?!?!?

I have my own thoughts on how to sort this situation out, but I want to get your input here before I open my mouth.

I had this on the weekend, and it was the worst-case scenario: Susie Q was jamming the prior jam, and I didn't get the word out in time to do anything about it (or get a timeout) before the pack start.

What I did - start Susie Q in the box as a jammer on the following jam (luckily the intermediary jammer was not also sent there).

One thing I thought about later as a possibility: if I'd had my wits about me, which I fully admit I did not as I was a little confused working with a different NSO/tracking setup than I've seen before - I might have ushered the replacement jammer off the track before she got to the pack, and sent Susie to the box promptly. That's slightly unorthodox though, so I wanted to throw it out there for potential ridicule before adding it as a possible practice.


Offline Jessticular Fortitude

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Re: The Late Damned Fourth
« Reply #2 on: April 13, 2009, 03:48:51 pm »
You didn't call a timeout, and waited until the next jam?
Hey look, a search function! Right up there! No on the left

Perhaps we should all spend a little more time reading and a little less time making shit up.

Great Barrier Ref

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Re: The Late Damned Fourth
« Reply #3 on: April 13, 2009, 03:53:49 pm »
You didn't call a timeout, and waited until the next jam?

I would call a timeout if there was time - obviously with a timeout this can be fixed easily.
In my case the pack was started as I was trying to call it, so this was the cleaning up after-the-fact solution.

Offline JoeXCore

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Re: The Late Damned Fourth
« Reply #4 on: April 13, 2009, 04:06:44 pm »
It shouldn't happen with a jammer because pack refs shouldn't be calling minors on jammers and your jam ref should be aware of how many minors the jammer has.

For pack skaters I call a timeout and pull the skater from the bench to the penalty box. If the following jam has already began then we allow them to stay on the bench and then pull them the end of the jam.
Black n Bluegrass Roller Girls - head referee
MRDA Recognized Refree

Offline Jessticular Fortitude

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Re: The Late Damned Fourth
« Reply #5 on: April 13, 2009, 04:08:00 pm »
Should you have called off the jam and adjusted the skaters on the track instead of waiting until the next jam?
Hey look, a search function! Right up there! No on the left

Perhaps we should all spend a little more time reading and a little less time making shit up.

Great Barrier Ref

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Re: The Late Damned Fourth
« Reply #6 on: April 13, 2009, 04:19:58 pm »
Should you have called off the jam and adjusted the skaters on the track instead of waiting until the next jam?

That would have been the Head Ref's call. I alerted him to the situation after the start and he elected to roll with it, especially as the jammers were on the pack by then. I think that was a fair call on his part - we'd had a rocky start with a lot of timeouts for procedural issues already. Our officiating settled down a bit after that, we got the rhythm going.

Offline Bishop

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Re: The Late Damned Fourth
« Reply #7 on: April 13, 2009, 04:24:42 pm »
I suspect we've all been there before.  20-25 seconds following the end of the previous jam: "Susie Q has four!"

GAH!  Susie Q's not in this jam!  Why couldn't you get this information to me faster?!?!?!?

I have my own thoughts on how to sort this situation out, but I want to get your input here before I open my mouth.

I certainly have.   :-[  That's why I'm thinking I'm going to make it part of my practice as a Jammer ref to see how many minors my Jammer has prior to each Jam AND let her know by holding up the appropriate number of fingers.  As the Head Ref and ref coach of my league, I'm instructing my Jammer refs to do the same.  I will also incorporate that as something to address in the pre-bout meeting.  I know that doesn't address your "what to do about it" question, but I'm trying to think about how to prevent it from happening.  It's rather emabarassing and it appears "unprofessional" when it does happen.   And if there's one thing I've learned in recent weeks is that you definitely want to make all appearances of being professional and on top of things.  Otherwise, you end up giving coaches more ammo for requesting a change of Jammer ref - even if it's a totally unwarranted.

  
Recommended Resources:WFTDA Rules Central, WFTDA officiating & Successful Sports Officiating
Propose rule changes at timeout.wftda.com.

Offline Tootie Tinwhistle

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Re: The Late Damned Fourth
« Reply #8 on: April 13, 2009, 04:42:36 pm »
I suspect we've all been there before.  20-25 seconds following the end of the previous jam: "Susie Q has four!"

GAH!  Susie Q's not in this jam!  Why couldn't you get this information to me faster?!?!?!?

I have my own thoughts on how to sort this situation out, but I want to get your input here before I open my mouth.

Drop it.  Wasn't reported in fast enough.  All non-reported minors should be dropped at the beginning of the next jam-  if it wasn't reported by then, it never happened.
Denver Roller Dolls
WFTDA Level 2 Certified

Offline DayGlo Divine

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Re: The Late Damned Fourth
« Reply #9 on: April 13, 2009, 04:52:11 pm »
It shouldn't happen with a jammer because pack refs shouldn't be calling minors on jammers and your jam ref should be aware of how many minors the jammer has.

Unless, of course, you have the misfortune of having an outside pack ref who calls minors on jammers because s/he doesn't know better or knows better and just doesn't care. I had that happen at a bout once. I was not pleased, and the fact that it was also a bad call didn't help matters. >:(
WFTDA Certified Referee (Level 2)
Charm City Roller Girls
Opinions expressed here are mine. Not WFTDA's, not Charm City's, and not those of Zebra Huddle as a whole.

Offline Jessticular Fortitude

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Re: The Late Damned Fourth
« Reply #10 on: April 13, 2009, 04:56:55 pm »
I suspect we've all been there before.  20-25 seconds following the end of the previous jam: "Susie Q has four!"

GAH!  Susie Q's not in this jam!  Why couldn't you get this information to me faster?!?!?!?

I have my own thoughts on how to sort this situation out, but I want to get your input here before I open my mouth.

Drop it.  Wasn't reported in fast enough.  All non-reported minors should be dropped at the beginning of the next jam-  if it wasn't reported by then, it never happened.

Yeah... I'm gonna have to disagree with you there...

Sometimes so many penalties are reported in at one time that the penalty tracker may not be able to keep up and have them all written down  before the 30 seconds is up. Just because there is a bottleneck, or maybe there was a disputed call that is taking up time, doesn't mean the penalty that had to wait to be reported "didn't happen." If a skater earned a penalty, you can't just ignore it.
Hey look, a search function! Right up there! No on the left

Perhaps we should all spend a little more time reading and a little less time making shit up.

Offline Conan

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Re: The Late Damned Fourth
« Reply #11 on: April 13, 2009, 05:06:43 pm »
As a Pack Ref, one way to cut down on these late 4th which lead to the dreaded Official's Timeouts is to be more disciplined with the 3 Board. 

It won't help in every situation, but if it prevents even one Official's Timeout, it's worth it.   
WFTDA Rules Q & A Worker
WFTDA Certified 3

Offline JoeXCore

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Re: The Late Damned Fourth
« Reply #12 on: April 13, 2009, 05:53:11 pm »
Should you have called off the jam and adjusted the skaters on the track instead of waiting until the next jam?

If the jam starts I'll let it go. It's not worth interrupting a jam in progress in my opinion for the "4th minor log jam" as I call it.
Black n Bluegrass Roller Girls - head referee
MRDA Recognized Refree

Offline Professor Murder

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Re: The Late Damned Fourth
« Reply #13 on: April 13, 2009, 06:40:53 pm »
As a Pack Ref, one way to cut down on these late 4th which lead to the dreaded Official's Timeouts is to be more disciplined with the 3 Board.

more specifically meaning...?
Philly Roller Girls
WFTDA Interim Games Officer
WFTDA Certified Referee: Level 5
"100% Less Dancing" - Dr. Vroom

Offline Conan

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Re: The Late Damned Fourth
« Reply #14 on: April 13, 2009, 07:18:39 pm »
As a Pack Ref, one way to cut down on these late 4th which lead to the dreaded Official's Timeouts is to be more disciplined with the 3 Board.
more specifically meaning...?

Lots of leagues out here use a "3 Board", a medium sized hand held Marker Board.  An NSO works to keep the board updated with the Number of any skater who has 3 fouls.
Between jams, IPRs have access to this info at a glance.  IPRs compare the info on the 3 Board to the lineup of skaters on the floor.  The goal is to shortcut having to call the fourth minor foul in to the PTs, then having them call back to the IPRs.  Instead, IPRs can just call the minor, directly call the skater to the PB, then report the foul to the PTs after.

It is one small way to cut down on Late Forths.   
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