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Author Topic: The Late Damned Fourth  (Read 26803 times)

Offline Jessticular Fortitude

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Re: The Late Damned Fourth
« Reply #15 on: April 13, 2009, 07:26:25 pm »
While that helps the IPRs, that doesn't help the OPR--> Outside Whiteboard (if there is one)--> Penalty Spotter (if there is one)--> Penalty Tracker potential bottleneck. All sorts of factors in there to slow down reporting if things get backed up.



So Murder- what would you do?
Hey look, a search function! Right up there! No on the left

Perhaps we should all spend a little more time reading and a little less time making shit up.

Offline noidd

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Re: The Late Damned Fourth
« Reply #16 on: April 13, 2009, 07:29:53 pm »
It's rather embarassing and it appears "unprofessional" when it does happen.

It may be embarrassing, but it's not unprofessional.  Professionals make mistakes BUT they distinguish themselves by the way that they rectify them.

Let me emphasize my lack of experience in this area, but my gut feeling is this.  If team A's jammer got her forth minor, then whether the following jam has started or not team A's new jammer has no business being on the track.

If they haven't started scoring points yet my gut would be to call off the jam and reset the period clock.

Which is more important, Refs and NSOs being embarrassed or the integrity of the game?

If they started scoring points now you're in a lot deeper...

--
Referees are not here to legislate, dictate, pontificate or participate.  We are there only to facilitate.

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Re: The Late Damned Fourth
« Reply #17 on: April 13, 2009, 07:40:21 pm »

Lots of leagues out here use a "3 Board", a medium sized hand held Marker Board.  An NSO works to keep the board updated with the Number of any skater who has 3 fouls.

This was the source of much of my confusion last weekend, when I encountered it for the first time. Under our local system and the other remote games I've done, our minor-boards list every skater along with their current number of minors, 0-3. We also have blank boards that just list the skaters that are accumulating majors. This crucial difference wasn't covered pre-bout, and took a while to iron out.

Offline Rev. Riot

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Re: The Late Damned Fourth
« Reply #18 on: April 14, 2009, 12:17:45 am »
When this happens to me, I tell the other pack ref to pull a skater and immediately get the offending skater to the box.

I think what Conan meant by being familiar with the 3-board is that you should be regularly checking the hot board to see who's at three, and the more of them you know, the more they can be pulled faster.

Tootie, the question isn't about a penalty not recorded or reported, the question is about a reported fourth, which the penalty trackers, getting through the penalties reported between jams, only get around to noticing that someone has four just before the jam starts.

Worst case scenario, I enforce it in the next jam.
Matthew Mantsch - Reverend Riot
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Offline Tootie Tinwhistle

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Re: The Late Damned Fourth
« Reply #19 on: April 14, 2009, 01:40:22 am »
When this happens to me, I tell the other pack ref to pull a skater and immediately get the offending skater to the box.

I think what Conan meant by being familiar with the 3-board is that you should be regularly checking the hot board to see who's at three, and the more of them you know, the more they can be pulled faster.

Tootie, the question isn't about a penalty not recorded or reported, the question is about a reported fourth, which the penalty trackers, getting through the penalties reported between jams, only get around to noticing that someone has four just before the jam starts.

Worst case scenario, I enforce it in the next jam.

Right...  Now this thread makes a lot more sense.  Though I'm still confused how a Jammer gets her 4th and finishes the Jam not on her way to the box.

If it's just a matter of trackers collecting data, what can you do?  Call her out as fast as possible, call a quick OTO if you need the time, and if the next Jam has begun, enforce in the next Jam.  At halftime, and/or after the bout, see if there is a correctable problem that is leading to a lack of efficiency.  Other than that, delayed 4th reports are an inherent problem with the minor system.
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Offline Bishop

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Re: The Late Damned Fourth
« Reply #20 on: October 28, 2009, 06:45:09 pm »
Here's a tip for handling 4th minors that I stumbled upon: When that 4th gets reported at the end of a jam or near the beginning of the next, tell that team's Blockers first.  What I mean is, tell that team's Blockers who are on the track or are on their way to the track, "[Hey Team] Pink, so-and-so has four minors, you're going to need to send a player off."  The more Blockers who hear this, the better.  When I do this, I usually wave my arms in front of them the way players do when they're trying to get a referee's attention for an intentional fourth minor.  This gives them the chance to figure out who best to send off.  I've noticed that a lot referees usually will head to the team's bench first and fail to inform the team's fielded Blockers until after the fact.

After I inform the fielded Blockers, I head to the team's bench provided that team's player isn't already on her way to the box.  This way, I can get this situation sorted out even if the jam happens to start.  I've had very few official timeouts since I've started doing this.  :)
« Last Edit: October 28, 2009, 06:48:14 pm by Bishop »
Recommended Resources:WFTDA Rules Central, WFTDA officiating & Successful Sports Officiating
Propose rule changes at timeout.wftda.com.

Offline FNZebra

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Re: The Late Damned Fourth
« Reply #21 on: October 28, 2009, 07:06:15 pm »
Ooooo. Nice use of personal interest there, Bish.
You will bout as you practice.


Cheers,

FN Zebra
Bleeding Heartland Roller Derby (WFTDA)
Bloomington, Indianer

Offline DayGlo Divine

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Re: The Late Damned Fourth
« Reply #22 on: October 28, 2009, 07:24:32 pm »
Here's a tip for handling 4th minors that I stumbled upon: When that 4th gets reported at the end of a jam or near the beginning of the next, tell that team's Blockers first.  What I mean is, tell that team's Blockers who are on the track or are on their way to the track, "[Hey Team] Pink, so-and-so has four minors, you're going to need to send a player off."

Um, no. That borders on coaching. It's the skaters' and coaches' responsibility to be aware of who is in the box at all times, including between jams. It is their job to figure out that if a teammate goes to the box between jams, someone needs to leave the track.
WFTDA Certified Referee (Level 2)
Charm City Roller Girls
Opinions expressed here are mine. Not WFTDA's, not Charm City's, and not those of Zebra Huddle as a whole.

Offline FNZebra

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Re: The Late Damned Fourth
« Reply #23 on: October 28, 2009, 07:31:35 pm »
So just tell them "[Hey Team] Pink, so-and-so has four minors and is going to the box." as you're heading to the appropriate bench. Let them figure out that they now have too many.
You will bout as you practice.


Cheers,

FN Zebra
Bleeding Heartland Roller Derby (WFTDA)
Bloomington, Indianer

Offline DayGlo Divine

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Re: The Late Damned Fourth
« Reply #24 on: October 28, 2009, 07:42:04 pm »
So just tell them "[Hey Team] Pink, so-and-so has four minors and is going to the box." as you're heading to the appropriate bench. Let them figure out that they now have too many.

They can also figure out that someone was sent to the box on their own, and they usually do.
WFTDA Certified Referee (Level 2)
Charm City Roller Girls
Opinions expressed here are mine. Not WFTDA's, not Charm City's, and not those of Zebra Huddle as a whole.

Great Barrier Ref

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Re: The Late Damned Fourth
« Reply #25 on: October 28, 2009, 08:32:54 pm »
A lot of being a professional ref is appearance.

I look at the group on the track and yell "Red 58, to the penalty box.". That's because Red 58 is possibly on the track. If she's not, I turn to the bench and yell "Red 58, to the penalty box", as I scan the bench to find her and make sure she's going.
Those are necessary statement/actions. Even though adding "you'll need to send someone off" is really no additional information, by the nature of the communication it sounds like coaching, and therefore inappropriate.

Offline the pantichrist

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Re: The Late Damned Fourth
« Reply #26 on: October 29, 2009, 01:30:56 am »



So Murder- what would you do?

I'm also curious to know?  WWMD?
WFTDA Officiating Education Director
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Memphis Roller Derby

Offline Bishop

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Re: The Late Damned Fourth
« Reply #27 on: October 29, 2009, 02:01:33 am »
A lot of being a professional ref is appearance.

Absolutely agree with this statement!

I wasn't avoiding the official timeout for my own self interest.  Frankly, if I thought that I needed to take a official timeout after every jam in order to keep the bout "safe and fair", I wouldn't hesitate to do so.  The reason that I communicate the sitaution to the skaters is so that they feel they are being treated fairly.  Fairness is a critical aspect of being a professional referee.  In fact, according a survey of officials conducted by the National Association of Sports Officials, the fourth most important trait of officiating excellence is being fair (Evaluating Officiating Performance, p. 10).  From my own personal experience, fairnes is often a matter of perception.  Another important aspect of being a professional referee is being transparent.  That's what I was trying to do by communicating the situation to the skaters who most needed to know.  This is related to having good communication skills which was ranked 11th in the same survey I referenced above.

Telling skaters, "[Hey Team] Pink, so-and-so has four minors, you're going to need to send a player off" is taking care of an administrative detail in the most timely manner possible in a fair and transparent way.  What I didn't mention was that I do calibrate this to the audience (the Blockers) as needed - if, after I say, "So-and-so four minors" and there is instant recognition, I'll go forth post haste to the team's bench and find the skater.  I could see where with certain well-established teams, any additional communication would be unnecessary.  Since Bishop from Bumfuck most often officiates bouts involving newer leagues with inexperienced skaters, it's more important to ensure the comprehension takes place than it is to worry about something being perceived as "coaching".  Also, since I handle both teams the same way, I'm consistent which is the second most important trait mentioned in the survey I referenced above.      

Incidently, this does not necessarily mean the the team will realize that they have fielded too many skaters.  I'm saying that "you have to send one off" - I'm not saying "you have too many skaters."  In fact, this past weekend, a team had one player in the penalty box, fielded four Blockers when I informed them they'd need to send one off.  They sent exactly one Blocker off.  Fortunately for them, a Blocker realized this at the last second and stepped off the track.  


I was at Easterns this year and it was great to see that referees could officiate bouts involving their home leagues.  It was explained to me that derby is getting past the over-concern with potential bias on the part of the officiating crews.  It would be nice to see derby officials get past over-concern with "coaching" and "over-communication" as well.






  
« Last Edit: October 29, 2009, 02:30:27 am by Bishop »
Recommended Resources:WFTDA Rules Central, WFTDA officiating & Successful Sports Officiating
Propose rule changes at timeout.wftda.com.

Offline mick hawkins

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Re: The Late Damned Fourth
« Reply #28 on: October 29, 2009, 02:35:07 am »
Telling skaters, "[Hey Team] Pink, so-and-so has four minors, you're going to need to send a player off" is taking care of an administrative detail in the most timely manner possible in a fair and transparent way.  What I didn't mention was that I do calibrate this to the audience (the Blockers) as needed - if, after I say, "So-and-so four minors" and there is instant recognition....

i'm with DGD - this borders on coaching

refs should provide skaters with information they need -- not then tell the skaters what to do with that info

telling the 4th minor skater she has 4 minors and sending her to the box, then telling her team "player x is in the box for 4 minors" is enough

what the team does or doesnt do with that info is up to them
if they dont resolve it befor the jam starts youd then use the "return to your bench signal" and issue an IP minor

by telling them they need to remove a player from the track you are helping them to avoid a penalty
Sun State Roller Girls (WFTDA Apprentice League)
Brisbane, Australia

Offline Bishop

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Re: The Late Damned Fourth
« Reply #29 on: October 29, 2009, 02:39:33 am »
Telling skaters, "[Hey Team] Pink, so-and-so has four minors, you're going to need to send a player off" is taking care of an administrative detail in the most timely manner possible in a fair and transparent way.  What I didn't mention was that I do calibrate this to the audience (the Blockers) as needed - if, after I say, "So-and-so four minors" and there is instant recognition....

i'm with DGD - this borders on coaching

I respectfully disagree.
Recommended Resources:WFTDA Rules Central, WFTDA officiating & Successful Sports Officiating
Propose rule changes at timeout.wftda.com.

 

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