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Author Topic: The Late Damned Fourth  (Read 26827 times)

Offline Major Wood

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Re: The Late Damned Fourth
« Reply #30 on: October 29, 2009, 03:41:58 am »
I'm with DayGlo here as well.
I tell the skater she has 4 minors and needs to report to the box. If I can't find her quickly, I tell the captain or alternate that skater XX needs to go to the box for 4 minors. I leave it at that. Anything beyond that is coaching.

I'm going to have to respectfully disagree with your assertion that referees need to stop worrying about coaching. When we are out there with our referee hat on, we are not supposed to be giving any help in preventing penalties. The only warnings that should be given are those specified in the rules. And yes, "you need to send someone off the track" qualifies as a warning not specified in the rules.
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Offline JoeXCore

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Re: The Late Damned Fourth
« Reply #31 on: October 29, 2009, 03:52:23 am »
Agreed with Wood, DayGlo.. etc.
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Offline noidd

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Re: The Late Damned Fourth
« Reply #32 on: October 29, 2009, 12:24:14 pm »
[rule]9.2.1.1.3 Referees do not warn teams when too many skaters line up on the track.[/rule]

Warning players they have too many on the track is specifically prohibited in the rules.
(Captain Literal again).

In a more broad sense there is refereeing culture which is specific to this sport and warnings and lack of preventative refereeing is one of them.

Another example of good refereeing in said book is to quietly warn skaters is they're playing style is getting out of hand.  I wish in a way we can do that because I would rather say "reign it in" to a skater than have to eject one 10 minutes later for an elbow to the face (happened to me when I was HR this week).

I saw so many close calls but what can you do?

Yet another example is a quiet "Great job" to a player who did an exceptional play.  In officiating in other sports this is seen as good communication.  In derby, it would be seen as bias.

We saw an accusation of bias a few weeks ago because a ref was dancing to the music at half-time.  Her team was 50 points up and the visiting team saw that as celebrating and consequently bias.

I'm rarely concerned by referee bias, I'm concerned with skater and audience perception of referee bias.  Abolishing the practice of introducing referees as being from their home team would be a good start with this.
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Offline Bishop

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Re: The Late Damned Fourth
« Reply #33 on: October 29, 2009, 02:44:19 pm »
[rule]9.2.1.1.3 Referees do not warn teams when too many skaters line up on the track.[/rule]

Warning players they have too many on the track is specifically prohibited in the rules.
(Captain Literal again).

As I've already pointed out, I'm not warning them that they have too many - they to figure that out on their own.  What I am doing is giving them the opportunity to comply - the same way they are given the chance to comply with fielding too many players once the jam has started.  It would be unfair to the skaters not give them that opportunity to comply to a literal last second officiating task.  The only other fair and transparent way to handle the situation would be to take an official timeout. 

Noidd, thank you for bringing up the cultural differences between derby and well, any other sport I can think of.  That's exactly what I mean when I say that it would nice to see derby get past this over-concern with perceived "coaching".

If we're going to continue this discussion, I think it would be best split off into a different thread.  I've found a way of handling an administrative task that is congruent with the type of official I wish to be.  Obviously, some have issues with that because it isn't congruent with the type of official they wish to be perceived as.  At least, I guess that's what it is anyway.  Honestly, I've always been puzzled with the whole "coaching" thing. 
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Offline Professor Murder

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Re: The Late Damned Fourth
« Reply #34 on: October 29, 2009, 03:03:04 pm »
Yet another example is a quiet "Great job" to a player who did an exceptional play.

In what sports is this acceptable?
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Offline Captain Gorgeous

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Re: The Late Damned Fourth
« Reply #35 on: October 29, 2009, 03:21:05 pm »
Yet another example is a quiet "Great job" to a player who did an exceptional play.  In officiating in other sports this is seen as good communication.  In derby, it would be seen as bias.

Sorry Noidd, but I disagree w/ the part of the statement that this would be seen as good comm. in other sports. Every sport I've played or partcipated in one fashion or another, the umpires or referees never commented on game play. Regardless of the sport, referees/officials should not be saying "great job" to anyone but maybe other referees at the end in talking about how each other did.
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Re: The Late Damned Fourth
« Reply #36 on: October 29, 2009, 04:02:45 pm »
Yet another example is a quiet "Great job" to a player who did an exceptional play.

In what sports is this acceptable?

Little league? If that?

Offline DayGlo Divine

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Re: The Late Damned Fourth
« Reply #37 on: October 29, 2009, 04:15:35 pm »
As I've already pointed out, I'm not warning them that they have too many - they to figure that out on their own.  What I am doing is giving them the opportunity to comply - the same way they are given the chance to comply with fielding too many players once the jam has started.  It would be unfair to the skaters not give them that opportunity to comply to a literal last second officiating task.  The only other fair and transparent way to handle the situation would be to take an official timeout.

Or handle it the way Great Barrier Ref does. Announcing very loudly that a skater is due for a trip to the box gives everyone the information they need to make their own decisions.

Here's a tip for handling 4th minors that I stumbled upon: When that 4th gets reported at the end of a jam or near the beginning of the next, tell that team's Blockers first.  What I mean is, tell that team's Blockers who are on the track or are on their way to the track, "[Hey Team] Pink, so-and-so has four minors, you're going to need to send a player off."

The example you provided is a warning to the skaters, which is against the rules. Whether you agree with that or like it is neither here nor there.
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Offline MaxxChaos

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Re: The Late Damned Fourth
« Reply #38 on: October 29, 2009, 04:52:25 pm »
Chiming in to agree and endorse the simple giving of information, skaters can do with it what they will.
GBR's announcement style is also what we employ... the concern is first to get the skater who owes to the box, it is up to her bench to make adjustments, once the whistle blows our job is to recognize the situation (i.e. too many skaters on the track, too many pivots, whatev.) and handle it as the rules guide us.

Trust me, I get the idea of 'facilitating game play' (warnings, over-informing) and it quickly moves into "hosting" category for a ref. You are not a party host(ess), it is not up to you to make sure skaters have a pleasant time at your party; skaters have chosen and agreed to a rules set and all of the intricacies that come with that, there are jobs other than reffing that ensure teams will be in compliance with the rules. I would love to tell Pink team that they have too many on the track prior to the whistle so that they could remedy it and we wouldn't be in for the Too Many on the Track dance... but it's not my job. The rules and clarifications have been clear on this. My job is to know what to do when the whistle blows and a team is in violation and to ensure that it is enforced correctly, consistently and in a timely manner.

Beyond that and more to the issue at hand:
Isolated, late fourth scenario has been covered here. Yes, it's worth investigating where that fourth came from. If her jam ref didn't check her minors before she took the line, address that problem so that it won't happen again. If it came from the outside and it's not your policy to take minors on the jammer from pack refs, that can be mentioned in the 30 seconds between jams or during a team time out.

I also agree that you can't make a penalty go away (duplicate calls are a different matter). If there is a clusterfluck in the penalty relay system, rather than call a million official time outs to pull that skater with four over and over again. Call an official time out (or ask your head ref for one) and ask the NSOs what's going on. Seriously, might take longer than 5 seconds but it's investing in the future of the bout. Maybe the inside trackers aren't looking to the outside, okay- what's going to happen that remedies that problem now, for this bout? We all know what it feels like when the system is working, I hope, so when it is clearly *not* working, take the time out to make changes real time to pull it out of the can.
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Offline Bishop

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Re: The Late Damned Fourth
« Reply #39 on: October 29, 2009, 07:46:49 pm »
Here's a tip for handling 4th minors that I stumbled upon: When that 4th gets reported at the end of a jam or near the beginning of the next, tell that team's Blockers first.  What I mean is, tell that team's Blockers who are on the track or are on their way to the track, "[Hey Team] Pink, so-and-so has four minors, you're going to need to send a player off."

The example you provided is a warning to the skaters, which is against the rules. Whether you agree with that or like it is neither here nor there.

I am directing a player off the track.  I am not warning them about the number of players that they have fielded.  I am well aware of rule 9.2.1.1.3 and I doubt that it was written with handling a fourth minor seconds prior to the start of a jam in mind. 

The point of saying anything to the fielded Blockers is so that they hear and comprehend the situation.  One of my hobbies is studying communication skills.  It is understood that if you approach someone who has their mind on something else, the first words out of your mouth are likely not to be heard much less understood.  So, my point in saying what I said was to ensure that communication was taking place.  I suppose I could achieve the same thing by repeating "so-and-so has a fourth minor" and I might try that the next time to see what happens.
Recommended Resources:WFTDA Rules Central, WFTDA officiating & Successful Sports Officiating
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Offline DayGlo Divine

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Re: The Late Damned Fourth
« Reply #40 on: October 29, 2009, 08:15:00 pm »
Here's a tip for handling 4th minors that I stumbled upon: When that 4th gets reported at the end of a jam or near the beginning of the next, tell that team's Blockers first.  What I mean is, tell that team's Blockers who are on the track or are on their way to the track, "[Hey Team] Pink, so-and-so has four minors, you're going to need to send a player off."

The example you provided is a warning to the skaters, which is against the rules. Whether you agree with that or like it is neither here nor there.

I am directing a player off the track.  I am not warning them about the number of players that they have fielded.  I am well aware of rule 9.2.1.1.3 and I doubt that it was written with handling a fourth minor seconds prior to the start of a jam in mind. 

Telling a team to remove a player from the track constitutes warning them that they are playing too many skaters. And yes, 9.2.1.1.3 does cover any instance when there are too many skaters on the track.
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Opinions expressed here are mine. Not WFTDA's, not Charm City's, and not those of Zebra Huddle as a whole.

Great Barrier Ref

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Re: The Late Damned Fourth
« Reply #41 on: October 29, 2009, 08:25:25 pm »
I am well aware of rule 9.2.1.1.3 and I doubt that it was written with handling a fourth minor seconds prior to the start of a jam in mind.  

If there are seconds left, then just call the time out, yell for the player to get to the box, make sure she's going, wait a small but appropriate amount of seconds to let the players on the track realise what has happened, then start the jam regardless. This is how it's done. A small OTO here is not a terrible thing.

9.2.1.1.3 was intended to cover all forms of warning the players that they have too many on the track - it was explicitly voted in to the WFTDA rules by the skaters, because it's what they want.

Offline Duncan Disorderly

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Re: The Late Damned Fourth
« Reply #42 on: October 29, 2009, 09:05:57 pm »
Yet another example is a quiet "Great job" to a player who did an exceptional play.

In what sports is this acceptable?

Cricket. No, really.

EDIT: hmm, in the sense of "nice shot, son" when a batter plays a good shot, I mean - relatively non-committal, and plainly stating what is obvious to everyone (that there was a good shot played). The nature of cricket is that it's so technical and so firmly divided into separate segments of play that a very mild praising comment like that, even one made by an umpire standing in the game, will have no effect on the player's game. In fact, the opposite team will often praise a player's shot in the same manner.

However, I don't believe this would be appropriate to derby at all, and even in cricket, it'd have to be a pretty bloody special shot to earn that kind of response.
« Last Edit: October 29, 2009, 09:16:28 pm by Duncan Disorderly »
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Re: The Late Damned Fourth
« Reply #43 on: October 29, 2009, 09:07:50 pm »
Cricket. No, really.

Cricket is not a sport as the rest of the world understands it - sport, I mean. Because they definitely don't understand cricket.

Offline Duncan Disorderly

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Re: The Late Damned Fourth
« Reply #44 on: October 29, 2009, 09:17:06 pm »
Cricket. No, really.

Cricket is not a sport as the rest of the world understands it - sport, I mean. Because they definitely don't understand cricket.

Heh, true - see long-winded edit above. ;)
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