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Author Topic: Falling Small?  (Read 14547 times)

Offline Zombi

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Falling Small?
« on: July 26, 2012, 12:24:00 am »
Falling small is defined as: Falling with the arms and legs controlled, tucked in to the body, and not flailing. I have been instructed and have been judging LBs on small falls being the skater tucked in a fetal position (so to speak). However, the rule does not define a small fall but by the position of the arms and legs. The reason I bring this up is because at a recent scrimmage a skater and a ref questioned a pair of LB calls I made. A black blocker tripped over a white blocker who had fallen with her arms and legs in control and "tucked", but her head and torso straight up. The skater said that was how she was instructed to fall by the referees at her league (none of which were there). The ref also said he was not instructed the way I was, but the head ref for the venue we were at was not there either. Have I been calling this wrong? A small fall being the skater's arms, legs, head and torso tucked in the fetal position? Thanks!

      Zombi
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Offline Invader Jim

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Re: Falling Small?
« Reply #1 on: July 26, 2012, 02:47:27 pm »
Falling small is defined as: Falling with the arms and legs controlled, tucked in to the body, and not flailing. I have been instructed and have been judging LBs on small falls being the skater tucked in a fetal position (so to speak). However, the rule does not define a small fall but by the position of the arms and legs. The reason I bring this up is because at a recent scrimmage a skater and a ref questioned a pair of LB calls I made. A black blocker tripped over a white blocker who had fallen with her arms and legs in control and "tucked", but her head and torso straight up. Thanks!

I see that as small. Sitting on her butt tucked in fetal position takes less floor space than the same position with face near the floor. It both positions, she is tucked and not flailing or sprawling. That is my 2c.

Offline PackMan

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Re: Falling Small?
« Reply #2 on: July 26, 2012, 07:09:19 pm »
In my experience "small" is a down on all fours position with arms and legs tucked, resembling a Turtle with appendages pulled in.  If the
torso is upright I would not consider that skater small.  Small is not just about floor space, but air space as well.

Offline Zombi

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Re: Falling Small?
« Reply #3 on: July 26, 2012, 08:36:32 pm »
Thanks for your input, refs. To clarify, I didn't mean a skater being on her behind, but sliding or down on her knees...
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Offline Entropy

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Re: Falling Small?
« Reply #4 on: July 27, 2012, 03:24:29 am »
In my experience "small" is a down on all fours position with arms and legs tucked, resembling a Turtle with appendages pulled in.  If the
torso is upright I would not consider that skater small.  Small is not just about floor space, but air space as well.

I am not sure this is true, floor space is what matters here, not air space.

By your logic skater who took a single knee with her arms and legs pulled in would be subject to the low blocking penality since she is taller then a skater who has falled on both knees hunched over.

I have always took this rule as a floor space rule because skater need to swerve around to avoid the fallen skater, jumping being a questionable optional extra.

I am happy to be corrected however.

Offline PackMan

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Re: Falling Small?
« Reply #5 on: July 27, 2012, 05:18:50 am »
In my experience "small" is a down on all fours position with arms and legs tucked, resembling a Turtle with appendages pulled in.  If the
torso is upright I would not consider that skater small.  Small is not just about floor space, but air space as well.

I am not sure this is true, floor space is what matters here, not air space.

By your logic skater who took a single knee with her arms and legs pulled in would be subject to the low blocking penality since she is taller then a skater who has falled on both knees hunched over.

I have always took this rule as a floor space rule because skater need to swerve around to avoid the fallen skater, jumping being a questionable optional extra.

I am happy to be corrected however.
By my logic both of the skaters described here would be subject to low block penalties because neither has fallen small.  Unfortunately, we will have to wait for some more experienced refs to put their two cents in since the rules don't define small in the detail you require.

Offline Entropy

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Re: Falling Small?
« Reply #6 on: July 27, 2012, 05:41:55 am »
Quote
By my logic both of the skaters described here would be subject to low block penalties because neither has fallen small.  Unfortunately, we will have to wait for some more experienced refs to put their two cents in since the rules don't define small in the detail you require.

Actually the rules do define small as

Falling with the arms and legs controlled, tucked in to the body, and not flailing.

I have always taken this literally to mean arms and legs pulled into the body, nothing in this mentions high of the fall, so even without clarification the criteria for a small fall are listed.
« Last Edit: July 27, 2012, 05:44:57 am by Entropy »

Offline mick hawkins

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Re: Falling Small?
« Reply #7 on: July 27, 2012, 05:42:49 am »
In my experience "small" is a down on all fours position with arms and legs tucked, resembling a Turtle with appendages pulled in.  If the
torso is upright I would not consider that skater small.  Small is not just about floor space, but air space as well.

I don't consider that the only way to fall small.

I think it's entirely possible for a skater to do a single or (in particular) double knee fall/slide and satisfy the definition of falling small.
... likewise for curled up in a ball as described above

« Last Edit: July 27, 2012, 05:45:08 am by mick hawkins »
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Offline Photo Bomb

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Re: Falling Small?
« Reply #8 on: July 29, 2012, 08:58:53 am »

No impact/no penalty does state 6.3.1 - A skater who "falls small" in an effort to avoid tripping.

most refs like to let these go. but even if we all get a consensus on what small is, don't be too to quick to let these go-

6.3.9 says habitual falling they get a penalty even if they fell higgs boson. no small is small enough.

Also under 6.3 "downed skaters re-entering the track are subject to low blocking even on the first instance and even if the downed skater has fallen small." This rings especially true to me when a jammer comes screaming back into the pack like a cannon ball sliding through the apex.  if she takes out the whole pack like bowling pins at the ankles that spells impact and dangerous to me even is she's an amputee and has no limbs.

There are cases when a fallen small skater gets the low block call. Just tossing that out.

(I just have an odd sense of humor and writing style, not being hostile in any way, I just always try and provoke a laugh.)

Offline Darkjester

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Re: Falling Small?
« Reply #9 on: July 29, 2012, 09:01:18 am »
And possibly an expulsion if she screams through the pack like a cannonball taking everyone out at the ankles.

In one of those "You know it when you see it moments" I might have to consider that a slide tackle.
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Offline Riff Reff

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Re: Falling Small?
« Reply #10 on: July 29, 2012, 09:58:16 pm »
Quote
There are cases when a fallen small skater gets the low block call. Just tossing that out.

Correct. E.g. if the the initiator of a (otherwise legal) block goes down in the process and trips the blockee there will be a low block call even if the blocker fell small. If the blockee goes down and falls small and falls in front to the blocker then it's no impact.


And a double or single knee fall with the torso upright is not falling small in my humble opinion.

PS: DJ will you stop with those expulsion scenarios ;)
« Last Edit: July 29, 2012, 10:00:20 pm by Riff Reff »
Don't look at the game with rules-tinted glasses; look at the rules with game-tinted glasses!

Offline Darkjester

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Re: Falling Small?
« Reply #11 on: July 30, 2012, 03:22:22 pm »
Sorry Riff ;-)
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Offline HIM-roid

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Re: Falling Small?
« Reply #12 on: August 24, 2012, 01:49:18 am »
Yes, I know this is 24 days ago, but I am going to add my two cents.
What you are quoting Photo about sliding back in is just a definition. You have to look at the penalty section. Under No Impact/No Penalty, 6.3.2 states: A skater who “falls small” in an effort to avoid tripping.I personally would not call a low block penalty on a skater who fell with her arms and legs tucked in or under her, rather it be Turtle style or Rock Star style. I agree with Mick that "air space" is not taken into consideration when judging small. Sometimes we have to look at the logic behind a rule. This is a contact sport and when there is contact, there is going to be people falling. If this exception was not in place, it would be easy for a team to keep knocking an opposing skater down into the hitters team mate to draw a penalty. 6.3.9 was established as a safety aspect. If a skater is constantly falling, she is a safety hazard to all of the other skaters on the track. However, we must also look at how she got to the floor. If a 100 lb skater was constantly getting owned by a 175-200 lb skater, I would tend to be a little more lenient on the number of falls.  And DJ, if a skater comes sliding through the pack in a SMALL position, how would you deem that a slide tackle? If her legs are tucked in, she can't be slide tackling. If there would be anything that I would consider expulsion on, it would be for intentionally tripping. I know, the dessert heat has got you wanting to eject someone.  See you when you get back.  ;)
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Offline Darkjester

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Re: Falling Small?
« Reply #13 on: August 26, 2012, 04:32:34 pm »
With the description provided of 'screams into the track like a cannonball taking people out' it sounds like a 'take out'. I'd 'possibly' consider it a slide tackle based on a 'you'd have to see it to call it' frame.
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Offline Major Wood

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Re: Falling Small?
« Reply #14 on: August 26, 2012, 09:52:26 pm »
Quote
There are cases when a fallen small skater gets the low block call. Just tossing that out.

Correct. E.g. if the the initiator of a (otherwise legal) block goes down in the process and trips the blockee there will be a low block call even if the blocker fell small. If the blockee goes down and falls small and falls in front to the blocker then it's no impact.


And a double or single knee fall with the torso upright is not falling small in my humble opinion.

Agreed on both counts. I would also add, falling small doesn't matter if the fallen skater slides across the track into an opposing skater.
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