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Author Topic: Falling Small?  (Read 15527 times)

Offline PackMan

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Re: Falling Small?
« Reply #15 on: August 30, 2012, 06:51:57 pm »
In my experience "small" is a down on all fours position with arms and legs tucked, resembling a Turtle with appendages pulled in.  If the
torso is upright I would not consider that skater small.  Small is not just about floor space, but air space as well.
Will somebody please weigh in on this?  I don't need to be right, I just want some clarification.
I am not sure this is true, floor space is what matters here, not air space.

By your logic skater who took a single knee with her arms and legs pulled in would be subject to the low blocking penality since she is taller then a skater who has falled on both knees hunched over.

I have always took this rule as a floor space rule because skater need to swerve around to avoid the fallen skater, jumping being a questionable optional extra.

I am happy to be corrected however.
By my logic both of the skaters described here would be subject to low block penalties because neither has fallen small.  Unfortunately, we will have to wait for some more experienced refs to put their two cents in since the rules don't define small in the detail you require.

Offline Bob Lloyd

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Re: Falling Small?
« Reply #16 on: August 30, 2012, 07:37:12 pm »
I may not be the experienced ref you are looking for, but I would consider it small if the skater falls (from the glossary definition for Fall Small):

[rule][Falling] with the arms and legs controlled, tucked in to the body, and not flailing.[/rule]

Emphasis mine.  The use of "and" here in this context means the skater must meet all three.  Single knee falls are not small falls, as the legs aren't tucked.  Generally (and there maybe exceptions) the leg that is down is sticking out behind the skater, and is prime for other skaters to fall over.  Even if it's controlled, it's still a safety hazard to other skaters.

I would consider small the way PackMan describes it, small and tucked, upright (not on her side), controlled, and not sliding.

I wouldn't consider height a factor in a small fall based on the logic that for your (low blocking target zones or) skates to contact a tall skater, you'd have to skate through the same space on the floor as a small skater.  If she's tucked, tall or turtle, she still fits the definition above.
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Offline Major Wood

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Re: Falling Small?
« Reply #17 on: August 30, 2012, 08:52:13 pm »
Disagree. Both by definition and practice.

Upright is not small. A skater on both knees and upright is not small and does not have her legs tucked. Legs tucked is knees pulled in toward the chest.

Have you not seen a skater do a double knee fall and create impact on another skater through contact with her back?

Have you seen a skater have an opposing skater fall small in front of her leaving only time to jump over her, or skate over her, with one skate on either side of the fallen skater? What happens if that fallen skater is upright?
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Offline Bob Lloyd

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Re: Falling Small?
« Reply #18 on: August 30, 2012, 09:00:46 pm »
I can buy that.  I'll rescind my comments about height.  I'm having trouble visualizing the skater's back during a double-knee fall having impact on another skater who wouldn't be impacted by the small skater, other than the example you gave of "skating over her" with the downed skater going between her legs.  But, like I said, I change my previous thoughts on "tall" vs "small" :)

Though, I would argue that jumping the downed skater would be a more dangerous action than a (safe & controlled) fall over her.  A jumping skater is a risk not only to herself if the jump isn't high/wide enough, but also her skates contacting the downed skater are a risk.  If I were to (and have) seen a skater attempt to jump a fallen skater (small or not), and failed to some extent, I would feel a Misconduct penalty would be warranted for airborne contact.  But that's besides the point of a small fall.
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Offline Major Wood

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Re: Falling Small?
« Reply #19 on: August 30, 2012, 10:48:49 pm »
Not sure I agree with a misconduct for attempting to avoid a downed skater by jumping and making contact. Exception being if she clearly took an opportunity to jump over a skater when she didn't need to. If that were to happen, I would argue it's more serious than a misconduct penalty.

Sometimes a safe and controlled fall is not possible. Sometimes a jump can be the only option other than hitting your face on the ground at a high rate of speed.
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Offline Bob Lloyd

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Re: Falling Small?
« Reply #20 on: August 30, 2012, 11:18:10 pm »
I'm not arguing to argue, just to understand. :)

Wouldn't that be counter to 6.15.3?

[rule]
6.15.3 - Initiating contact with both skates off of the ground. Jumping and leaping contact is unsafe for the initiator and the receiver.
[/rule]

We don't judge why her skates left the ground, just that they left the ground and she initiated contact with another skater.  It's an unfortunate penalty, but one that meets the criteria.  If she clears the skater, no penaltyr, but I don't see justifying one unsafe action (falling big) with another (jumping).

And yes, I agree that if she had reasonable opportunity to avoid the down skater by going around, jumped anyway, and made contact, it's more serious than misconduct.  And also that there are situations where a jump *may* be safer, but it doesn't jive with the rule.
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Offline Shaun Ketterman

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Re: Falling Small?
« Reply #21 on: August 31, 2012, 12:00:26 am »
Upright is not small. A skater on both knees and upright is not small and does not have her legs tucked. Legs tucked is knees pulled in toward the chest.

I disagree with this.  Upright can most certainly be small, based on the definition of falling small.  Falling small has to do with what one is doing with her arms and legs, not what her torso is doing.  If the legs and arms are controlled and tucked, I would certainly not see a larger vertical profile because the skater didn't then ball up as not falling small.  This also includes if the player has landed on her side or is positioned horizontally across the track.  As long as her arms and legs are tucked and pulled into herself as much as possible I do not consider that a low block.

Not sure I agree with a misconduct for attempting to avoid a downed skater by jumping and making contact. Exception being if she clearly took an opportunity to jump over a skater when she didn't need to. If that were to happen, I would argue it's more serious than a misconduct penalty.

I also disagree here.  It's never a necessity to jump a downed player.  Reacting to downed players is a part of derby and every player needs to be able to do it to pass minimum skills.  One can skate out of bounds, stop, skate around or take a controlled fall (or even an uncontrolled fall).  If the downed player is small, that is no impact.  It's just part of the game.  If someone decides to leap and she hits the person she's jumping I will always give a misconduct.
« Last Edit: August 31, 2012, 10:03:33 pm by Shaun Ketterman »
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Offline Major Wood

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Re: Falling Small?
« Reply #22 on: August 31, 2012, 01:28:09 am »
Upright is not small. A skater on both knees and upright is not small and does not have her legs tucked. Legs tucked is knees pulled in toward the chest.

I disagree with this.  Upright can most certainly be small, based on the definition of falling small.  Falling small has to do with what one is doing with her arms and legs, not what her torso is doing.  If the legs and arms are controlled and tucked, I would certainly not see a larger vertical profile because the skater didn't then ball up as not falling small.  This also includes if the player has landed on her side or is positionaed horizontally across the track.  As long as her arms and legs are tucked and pulled into herself as much as possible I do not consider that a low block.

We're going to have to agree to disagree here. The way I see it, it is not possible for someone to be upright and have their legs tucked.

Not sure I agree with a misconduct for attempting to avoid a downed skater by jumping and making contact. Exception being if she clearly took an opportunity to jump over a skater when she didn't need to. If that were to happen, I would argue it's more serious than a misconduct penalty.

I also disagree here.  It's never a necessity to jump a downed player.  Reacting to downed players is a part of derby and every player needs to be able to do it to pass minimum skills.  One can skate out of bounds, stop, skate around or take a controlled fall (or even an uncontrolled fall).  If the downed player is small, that is no impact.  It's just part of the game.  If someone decides to leap and she hits the person she's jumping I will always give a misconduct.

Again with the agreeing to disagree. In my personal experience, there have been many times where my only options were to jump, or take a digger.
In this type of case, I would view the fallen skater as the initiator.
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Offline Darkjester

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Re: Falling Small?
« Reply #23 on: August 31, 2012, 10:20:56 am »
FWIW. I CAN see a position where a person could be 'tucked' yet not down into the fetal position as small as possible to avoid the low block ala falling small.

Buttocks sitting on feet, knee's pressed together, back of the thighs along calf, arms pulled rightly into the chest, shoulders and head tucked in. 

I would consider that different than 'back straight head up' as attempting to be 'small'.


I would also allow for a skater in fetal position on her 'side' to be considered small.
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Offline Bishop

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Re: Falling Small?
« Reply #24 on: August 31, 2012, 03:19:11 pm »
Upright is not small. A skater on both knees and upright is not small and does not have her legs tucked. Legs tucked is knees pulled in toward the chest.

I disagree with this.  Upright can most certainly be small, based on the definition of falling small.  Falling small has to do with what one is doing with her arms and legs, not what her torso is doing.  If the legs and arms are controlled and tucked, I would certainly not see a larger vertical profile because the skater didn't then ball up as not falling small.  This also includes if the player has landed on her side or is positionaed horizontally across the track.  As long as her arms and legs are tucked and pulled into herself as much as possible I do not consider that a low block.

We're going to have to agree to disagree here. The way I see it, it is not possible for someone to be upright and have their legs tucked.
FWIW, I attended a clinic last year (with Wood?).  I recall a presenter saying that falling and landing with torso and head upright should be called as a low block if there is impact. 

I believe I have video of an excellent example of this.  I'll see if I can find it so that we can discuss.
Not sure I agree with a misconduct for attempting to avoid a downed skater by jumping and making contact. Exception being if she clearly took an opportunity to jump over a skater when she didn't need to. If that were to happen, I would argue it's more serious than a misconduct penalty.

I also disagree here.  It's never a necessity to jump a downed player.  Reacting to downed players is a part of derby and every player needs to be able to do it to pass minimum skills.  One can skate out of bounds, stop, skate around or take a controlled fall (or even an uncontrolled fall).  If the downed player is small, that is no impact.  It's just part of the game.  If someone decides to leap and she hits the person she's jumping I will always give a misconduct.

Again with the agreeing to disagree. In my personal experience, there have been many times where my only options were to jump, or take a digger.
In this type of case, I would view the fallen skater as the initiator.
I agree with MW here.  I think this an entirely acceptable use of referee discretion.

*Edited for clarity
« Last Edit: August 31, 2012, 03:54:34 pm by Bishop »
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Offline FNZebra

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Re: Falling Small?
« Reply #25 on: August 31, 2012, 09:36:32 pm »
Consider the image below; is this small?

You will bout as you practice.


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Offline Shaun Ketterman

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Re: Falling Small?
« Reply #26 on: August 31, 2012, 09:52:56 pm »
I can't see for sure what the downed player's legs below the knees are doing, so I'm not prepared to say that it is not a small fall.  If her legs are tucked up behind her, yes, I think it is.  If the knees are bent at a 90 degree angle, I'd say it's not.  If that jammer made the contact while airbourne, I'd give a major to her. 

Bishop and Major Wood: I just don't see the rules justification for your stance. 

EDIT: I've re-read some of your posts again and I get it now.  You feel that if the player isn't hunched up she's not pulling her limbs into her body as much as possible.  I'm still not on the same page but I understand what you're saying.  I guess we will have to agree to disagree, haha!
« Last Edit: August 31, 2012, 10:36:50 pm by Shaun Ketterman »
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Offline Darkjester

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Re: Falling Small?
« Reply #27 on: September 02, 2012, 09:02:23 am »
Regarding the picture..

IMO, its 'almost small' but not quite there yet..

One arm, from this angle so YMMV, doesn't appear to be pulled into the body, and as Shaun pointed out, hard to see where the legs are.

Now.. Because its hard to see if it IS or ISN'T small, from this angle I could not call a Low Block penalty, because I have to err on lawful in that case.
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Offline Coitus Interruptus Of The Roman Empire

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Re: Falling Small?
« Reply #28 on: January 29, 2014, 12:10:13 pm »
I may not be the experienced ref you are looking for, but I would consider it small if the skater falls (from the glossary definition for Fall Small):

[rule][Falling] with the arms and legs controlled, tucked in to the body, and not flailing.[/rule]

Emphasis mine.  The use of "and" here in this context means the skater must meet all three.  Single knee falls are not small falls, as the legs aren't tucked.  Generally (and there maybe exceptions) the leg that is down is sticking out behind the skater, and is prime for other skaters to fall over.  Even if it's controlled, it's still a safety hazard to other skaters.

I would consider small the way PackMan describes it, small and tucked, upright (not on her side), controlled, and not sliding.

I wouldn't consider height a factor in a small fall based on the logic that for your (low blocking target zones or) skates to contact a tall skater, you'd have to skate through the same space on the floor as a small skater.  If she's tucked, tall or turtle, she still fits the definition above.

I like this explanation.


Offline Vanilla VICE

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Re: Falling Small?
« Reply #29 on: January 29, 2014, 01:16:53 pm »
I may not be the experienced ref you are looking for, but I would consider it small if the skater falls (from the glossary definition for Fall Small):

[rule][Falling] with the arms and legs controlled, tucked in to the body, and not flailing.[/rule]

Emphasis mine.  The use of "and" here in this context means the skater must meet all three.  Single knee falls are not small falls, as the legs aren't tucked.  Generally (and there maybe exceptions) the leg that is down is sticking out behind the skater, and is prime for other skaters to fall over.  Even if it's controlled, it's still a safety hazard to other skaters.

I would consider small the way PackMan describes it, small and tucked, upright (not on her side), controlled, and not sliding.

I wouldn't consider height a factor in a small fall based on the logic that for your (low blocking target zones or) skates to contact a tall skater, you'd have to skate through the same space on the floor as a small skater.  If she's tucked, tall or turtle, she still fits the definition above.

IF all three are met why can all of these not be met on her side?
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