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Author Topic: NSO positions for the new ruleset  (Read 37026 times)

Offline beertester

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NSO positions for the new ruleset
« on: August 23, 2012, 09:37:04 pm »
so gravity touched on the implications for nso'ing under the new rule set so i was wondering what peoples initial thoughts are and what changes they envisage

Offline ShoNuff

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Re: NSO positions for the new ruleset
« Reply #1 on: August 24, 2012, 12:05:48 am »
I don't expect removing minors to have much impact at all on scoring or penalty management.

So I expect all of the impacts to be in the penalty tracking area.  I'm not sure what will be the new best staffing structure but I suspect the 6 people currently involved in tracking (2 OWB, 2 PT, 1 IWB, and 1 PW) will probably be reduced by 2-3 people.

I suspect some version of the inside white board will have to remain so that the teams know the penalty status of everyone playing.  It's possible the board might be able to be moved to the outside to open up lines of sight and space in the center since there should be fewer penalties to record and transmit from the referees.

I also think there will need to be some inside and some outside staff to insure smooth collection of penalties from the OPRs as well as the IPRs and Jam refs. 

The problem is that while I'm guessing that on the average there is going to be 1-2 penalties per jam, the reality is that they often come in clumps so with the no minor set there might be several jams with no penalties at all and then one with many penalties coming in from inside and outside so there needs to be enough staff to comfortably watch and record information from all of the referees.

I've heard some thoughts of just having referees remember the penalties they call since usually they won't be calling many in any given jam and just report them all to a single tracker between jams but that sounds like the kind of system that melts down in a big way when something goes wrong.

Offline Stegoscorus

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Re: NSO positions for the new ruleset
« Reply #2 on: August 24, 2012, 06:30:50 am »
In the first beta test, our NSOs were particularly ambitious and used a single Penalty Tracker as Penalty Box Manager.  That turned out to be a little much (or actually, not enough, ha).  The only infield NSO was the Jam Timer. 

At the end of the bout, the actual penalty totals weren't that different from the current average.  However, if every penalty is a major, there won't be the urgent need to report them right away, like there is with minors.  As long as the skater is in the box, you have the luxury of delaying reporting for a few seconds. 

It's going to depend on the experience level of the crew.  For tournament-level officials, I'm confident we could do away with one of the PTs, Outside White Boards and a dedicated wrangler.  Single PT with IWB operator helping wrangle if needed should be plenty.  For officials who have less experience, a more incremental change is probably wise.  Maybe keep the wrangler OR the OWBs.  Or start off as usual, and trim as you see fit. 

I think the best thing we could do is to try different things, and have conversations about what's working and not working, then try to standardize things more or less by the summer.  That way we can all be used to the same general set up by tournament time in the fall. 
WFTDA Certified Referee - Level 3
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Offline Samuel Bergus

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Re: NSO positions for the new ruleset
« Reply #3 on: August 24, 2012, 03:58:37 pm »
I only NSOed one run with the beta ruleset, and I was working the box, so I didn't see much of the impact from the change, I also didn't get much exposure to how the inside of the track was different.

That being said, I wonder if we could get rid of the IWB operater, and have the penalty trackers mark their own penalties. That might be a bit much at times, but I would keep that in mind as something to play around with.

Offline beertester

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Re: NSO positions for the new ruleset
« Reply #4 on: August 24, 2012, 11:01:41 pm »
as someone who has always been a fan of keeping the infield as clear as possible this will be my main focus in implementing the new rule set, but obviously like has been stated above would like to have it run the same or similar to most other leagues as it makes it easy for NSO's from visiting leagues, so heres what's been going through my head by position
scorekeepers, line up trackers, jam timers, box staff no change
IWB, not quite sure whether to have penalty trackers fill these in or do away with them all together
OWB, gone
penalty wrangler, have never used one
penalty trackers, think it will be a bit to much work for a single tracker, and the possibilities for mistakes with similar numbers is not worth the risk, so would use these as i have said above to fill in the inside whiteboards (if i keep them) between jams
i have never been a fan of IWB's as to me they border on coaching and would love to see them removed so those in the suicide seats get a better view of the game, but am open to persuasion
please discuss

Offline Major Wood

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Re: NSO positions for the new ruleset
« Reply #5 on: August 24, 2012, 11:33:36 pm »
When I jammer ref or head ref, I regularly make use of the inside whiteboards. I would not want to see them go away. While I would no longer need them for jammer reffing, I would still reference it as head referee. They are as much coaching as telling a jammer referee that the blockers are "in, in, in, out of play".
Also, remember, many people use the dot system on the IWB in order to track whether skaters have reported to the box for a penalty or if a penalty had not been reported for a skater who went to the box.

As far as a wrangler. I definitely recommend using one. A good wrangler makes everything go much more smoothly. I've worked bouts with no wrangler and an excellent penalty tracker (or two). I've also worked bouts with a decent penalty tracker (or two) and a decent penalty wrangler. In my experience, the latter results in a better officiated bout, because communication is streamlined. Referees are better able to keep their eyes where it is important.

That said, we're talking about what we will do when we have no minors. Here are my personal thoughts. No outside whiteboards, one penalty tracker, one inside whiteboard operator. I believe that the inside whiteboard operator will likely double as a wrangler. I think that a wrangler of some sort will remain a critical part of an NSO crew.
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Offline F-Stop

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Re: NSO positions for the new ruleset
« Reply #6 on: August 25, 2012, 01:00:42 am »
As other folks are saying, I like the idea of maintaining the IWB: referees, coaches, and players should all be able to easily see what penalties players have gotten, and who's close to fouling out (and don't forget the fans!).  One good penalty tracker with an IWB as wrangler should be able to manage things, but I am intrigued by Dante's idea to have just two PTs and no IWB operator or wrangler, with the PTs each marking their own penalties on the IWB.  I see little use for OWBs, and am leaning against having a dedicated wrangler (even though I love having one now).

I've heard people suggest that the PTs and IWB could be moved to the outside, but given that the majority of the referees and the head ref are on the inside, maintaing the penalty tracking staff on the inside seems useful.

Offline StabbyMcNeedles

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Re: NSO positions for the new ruleset
« Reply #7 on: August 25, 2012, 01:14:21 am »
My plan for it is 1 IWB operator and 1 roaming penalty tracker. The IWB will be able to still keep an eye on the box to make sure that the penalties reported and penalties served match up. The tracker will be less tethered to the whiteboard than right now (at least in most places where I have been that utilize a wrangler), so the PT can stick a little closer to the zebra herd. With minors gone, the frequency of penalties should be reduced and communication of 4th minors and jammer minors is eliminated, so 1 reasonably skilled tracker should be able to keep an eye on the action to record it and give the IWB updates as needed.

I like keeping both on the inside to simplify communication, since inside refs tend to call more penalties than outside refs (or they get communicated so well from OPR it IPR that I don't realize they were from the outside).

This means eliminating the OWB and wrangler positions and cutting 1 penalty tracker (and 1 IWB for those occasional places that still use 2). But talk to me again in January when I am trying to train a crew on this system, who knows what Future-Stabby will have to say about it?
Cincinnati Rollergirls Co-Head NSO
NSO Union, Local 513

Offline mick hawkins

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Re: NSO positions for the new ruleset
« Reply #8 on: August 25, 2012, 02:36:13 am »
i have never been a fan of IWB's as to me they border on coaching and would love to see them removed so those in the suicide seats get a better view of the game, but am open to persuasion
please discuss

How are IWBs bordering on coaching?

It's a record of penalites that have been earned... not instructions on how to play the game
Sun State Roller Girls (WFTDA Apprentice League)
Brisbane, Australia

Offline ShoNuff

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Re: NSO positions for the new ruleset
« Reply #9 on: August 28, 2012, 12:00:43 am »
I've had a couple conversations where people questioned the idea of removing the OWBs.  In principle it should be possible, but in noisy conditions, with new OPRs or with crews that don't know each other you are pretty well committing to expecting the OPRs to remember any penalties they call and skate them in at the end.

With strong crews the OWBs are already largely an in case of emergency position as a good crew can typically relay most everything to the center with the current penalty load.  But we still staff the position just in case.

Removing the OWBs will be removing a safety layer from the outside.  It might end up being necessary to keep some portion of the tracking staff on the outside even if it is just one person to give OPRs a way to drop off penalties in bout conditions where they can't reliably send it in during the jam.

Offline Eject You Later

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Re: NSO positions for the new ruleset
« Reply #10 on: August 28, 2012, 12:21:55 am »
you are pretty well committing to expecting the OPRs to remember any penalties they call and skate them in at the end.

Personally, I am not only OK with this, but it would be my expectation that without having to remember any minor calls (since there wouldn't be any), that every referee would be able to remember their major calls throughout the jam; especially since the skater's color and number has already been recorded by the penalty box staff.

Speaking for myself only, it isn't the penalty that I called that I typically forget, it is the skater's number (since the major calls are mixed in with minor calls and after a few jams the numbers kind of bleed together).

But if you whistle a penalty and direct a skater off the track, I do expect referees to be able to remember that call for a maximum of 2 minutes, and it will only be easier under no minors (less penalties to keep track of).  I do not think this is asking too much of a referee.  But even there, a good wrangler should hear the whistle, look in that direction, see the hand signal, and see the skater leaving the track, and it is recorded.

Also note, that what I (at least) am envisioning is merely SP.  If a league's Referees and/or NSOs are not experienced enough or able to make due with a more streamlined crew then they can utilize more NSOs.  There is no cap on NSOs like there is on referees for a sanctioned bout.
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Offline mick hawkins

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Re: NSO positions for the new ruleset
« Reply #11 on: August 28, 2012, 02:37:07 am »
I'm not sure I understand the concern.
Why would a Ref need to remember a penalty for 2 minutes?

A the moment, when one of our OPRs issues a major the wrangler usually notices the skater leaving the track before the penalty has been dropped off at the whiteboard.

A clear hand signal from the OPR should commuicate what the major was for.
Plus the IPR and OPR should be communicating anyway

Am I missing something?
Sun State Roller Girls (WFTDA Apprentice League)
Brisbane, Australia

Offline Eject You Later

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Re: NSO positions for the new ruleset
« Reply #12 on: August 28, 2012, 03:19:22 am »
I'm not sure I understand the concern.
Why would a Ref need to remember a penalty for 2 minutes?

The concern is what was stated by Sho, that an inexperienced crew could quite possibly miss a call that was made.  Either the inside wrangler isn't able to see or hear the call made by the outside ref, the inside refs aren't picking those calls up, or several majors are called nearly simultaneously and the outside calls aren't recorded right away.
Eject You Later - Referee
Old Capitol City Roller Girls of Coralville, IA
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Offline mick hawkins

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Re: NSO positions for the new ruleset
« Reply #13 on: August 28, 2012, 05:48:27 am »
ah... right

thanks
Sun State Roller Girls (WFTDA Apprentice League)
Brisbane, Australia

Offline Stegoscorus

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Re: NSO positions for the new ruleset
« Reply #14 on: August 28, 2012, 06:37:58 am »
I think both Sho and Eject make great points.  I agree that it shouldn't be hard to remember the calls you make, when minors are removed from the picture.

But I also agree that there are about a million derby contexts, and it's important to remain flexible in order to do what works for that crew, and that bout.  With more and more standardization in officiating, people have gotten away from this idea.

Standardization is a good thing!  But it's also important to remember the vast difference in resources available to the bajillions of leagues out there.  I'm generally for scrimmaging and bouting as close to the tournament standard as you can manage.  But different crews can manage different levels of that, eh?
WFTDA Certified Referee - Level 3
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Portland, OR, U.S.A.

 

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