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Author Topic: Cutting formost blocker in no pack  (Read 9048 times)

Offline Celtic Raider

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Cutting formost blocker in no pack
« on: September 14, 2012, 03:49:40 am »
Hey all.  Scenario for you:

White Jammer is coming through the Pack.  Has passed everyone except for the foremost opposing Blocker on the Black team.  No Pack is called for whatever reason.  Black Blocker hits White Jammer out of bounds, clearly after the No Pack call.  Yes she should get a Major OOP but in this scenario, no penalty is called by any of the refs on the Black Blocker.

The question is, does the White Jammer still have to come in behind the Black Blocker that hit her out?  My thought is no (and not because the Blocker should have gone off on a penalty) because it's a No Pack situation.

Follow up question:

Same scenario as above, only the hit happens and THEN it's a No Pack call.  Does the Jammer still need to come in behind the Blocker that knocked her out, my thought is still no.

Offline The Gorram Reaver

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Re: Cutting formost blocker in no pack
« Reply #1 on: September 14, 2012, 04:01:17 am »
Yes & Yes.  If only one skater is passed it is a minor penalty.

[rule]6.11.12 An in bounds, upright and skating skater who has re-entered the track from out of bounds in front of one in-bounds skater during a No Pack scenario, which results in her having bettered her position relative to that in bounds skater.[/rule]
The Gorram Reaver
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Offline ARSENAL

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Re: Cutting formost blocker in no pack
« Reply #2 on: September 14, 2012, 04:25:11 am »
Yes & Yes.  If only one skater is passed it is a minor penalty.

[rule]6.11.12 An in bounds, upright and skating skater who has re-entered the track from out of bounds in front of one in-bounds skater during a No Pack scenario, which results in her having bettered her position relative to that in bounds skater.[/rule]

I thought it would be a Major as it was the foremost opposing blocker.....
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Offline Riff Reff

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Re: Cutting formost blocker in no pack
« Reply #3 on: September 14, 2012, 05:05:54 am »
Listen to The Gorram Reaver! (and the cited rules)

It's a minor track cut. Yes she still has to come in behind, cutting still applies during no pack scenarios. The "foremost opposing" rule does not.
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Offline Eject You Later

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Re: Cutting formost blocker in no pack
« Reply #4 on: September 14, 2012, 01:18:09 pm »
There is more to it than being the foremost...

[rule]6.11.15 An in bounds, upright and skating skater who has re-entered the track from out of
bounds in front of the foremost in-play opposing Blocker, which results in her having
bettered her position.[/rule]

During a No Pack situation there are no in play blockers as all blockers lose their position.  Therefore 6.11.15 does not apply in a No Pack situation.  We instead use the metric that Reaver cited:

[rule]6.11.12 An in bounds, upright and skating skater who has re-entered the track from out of
bounds in front of one in-bounds skater during a No Pack scenario, which results in her
having bettered her position relative to that in bounds skater.[/rule]
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Offline Brass Monkey

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Re: Cutting formost blocker in no pack
« Reply #5 on: September 18, 2012, 10:29:14 pm »
Well, I'm glad I read this, as I've been calling this wrong by not giving any penalty.


But the jammer does still get the point (or pass) of that blocker as the points / pass as the blocker is not in play at the "No Pack" call correct?


[rule]8.5.3 Opponents who have removed themselves from play.[/rule]
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Offline Major Puddles

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Re: Cutting formost blocker in no pack
« Reply #6 on: September 18, 2012, 11:41:02 pm »
If you track cut someone, you don't get the point. You may not get a penalty, depending on the situation, but no point if you pass them while out of bounds.

8.5.3 doesn't apply as they have not removed themselves from play, there is simply "No pack".

Offline The Gorram Reaver

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Re: Cutting formost blocker in no pack
« Reply #7 on: September 19, 2012, 03:29:05 am »
But the jammer does still get the point (or pass) of that blocker as the points / pass as the blocker is not in play at the "No Pack" call correct?


[rule]8.5.3 Opponents who have removed themselves from play.[/rule]

In this case "Opponents who have removed themselves from play," specifically refers to skaters who are no longer actively playing in the jam because they have removed themselves due to injury, equipment malfunction, returning to their bench, etc.  If you would not score a skater as a Not On The Track (NOTT) point if there were a pack, you should not score that skater as a NOTT point solely because there is no pack.  The Jammer must still pass opponents legally & in bounds during no pack situations to earn points or eligibility for Lead Jammer.
The Gorram Reaver
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Offline Jeff Just ice

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Re: Cutting formost blocker in no pack
« Reply #8 on: October 14, 2012, 03:38:42 pm »
Ok, I have a couple questions that I need some help with.

1. If a Black pivot claims the line (touching the line), does Purple pivot have to claim the line in order to be at or past Black pivot’s hips? I ask because this keeps happening (a lot) and I’ve been told both ways.

2. This refers to rule 6.11.3 - A skater who has re-entered the track in front of a downed, out of bounds, or out of play skater is not bettering her position. However, such skaters are subject to cutting the track penalties for other in-play skaters and are still subject to skating out of bounds penalties.
So, if “No Pack” is called, who other than the Jammers are “in play”? The way I read it, the player can’t just cut across the track to catch up with other skaters because the Jammers are still in play.

3. If a player leaves the penalty box and steps in with her blockers but in front of opposing team during a “no pack” scenario. They are not subject to cutting penalties, correct? I asked because that’s the way I read rules, 6.13.10 and 6.13.22 both say in front of “pack” skater(s).

Your help is much appreciated and needed.

Thanks

Offline Nick Bergus

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Re: Cutting formost blocker in no pack
« Reply #9 on: October 14, 2012, 05:23:46 pm »
1. If a Black pivot claims the line (touching the line), does Purple pivot have to claim the line in order to be at or past Black pivot’s hips? I ask because this keeps happening (a lot) and I’ve been told both ways.
A pivot does not need to line up on the line or behind an opposing pivot on the line to avoid a false start.

2. This refers to rule 6.11.3 - A skater who has re-entered the track in front of a downed, out of bounds, or out of play skater is not bettering her position. However, such skaters are subject to cutting the track penalties for other in-play skaters and are still subject to skating out of bounds penalties.
So, if “No Pack” is called, who other than the Jammers are “in play”? The way I read it, the player can’t just cut across the track to catch up with other skaters because the Jammers are still in play.
The skater must re-enter behind the skaters she was behind when she went out and the skater who forced her out, if any, unless they fall or go out of bounds before she re-enters the track. If she cuts accross the infield, she should be issued a skating out of bounds major.

3. If a player leaves the penalty box and steps in with her blockers but in front of opposing team during a “no pack” scenario. They are not subject to cutting penalties, correct? I asked because that’s the way I read rules, 6.13.10 and 6.13.22 both say in front of “pack” skater(s).
Re-entry from the penalty box is subject to illegal re-entry penalties, not cutting. But, yes, during a no pack she can re-enter anywhere since there isn't a pack to re-enter behind. If she is the jammer, though, she wouldn't score points for any opponent she enter in front of unless she dropped back and passed them.
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Offline Jeff Just ice

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Re: Cutting formost blocker in no pack
« Reply #10 on: October 14, 2012, 06:13:09 pm »
Thanks Uranus Escheating, however with your answer to #3 I refer you to rule 6.11.3 – entering in front of an out of play skater is not bettering her position.
So, a “no pack” scenario is not deeming all blockers “out of play”? I ask because when a “no pack” is called and a Jammer is skating past the blockers and one of them decides to block the Jammer, it’s called an OOP major.  This is what leads me to believe that a “no pack” is deeming all blockers “out of play”.

Not trying to argue, just saying.

Offline The Gorram Reaver

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Re: Cutting formost blocker in no pack
« Reply #11 on: October 14, 2012, 08:57:05 pm »
Thanks Uranus Escheating, however with your answer to #3 I refer you to rule 6.11.3 – entering in front of an out of play skater is not bettering her position.
So, a “no pack” scenario is not deeming all blockers “out of play”? I ask because when a “no pack” is called and a Jammer is skating past the blockers and one of them decides to block the Jammer, it’s called an OOP major.  This is what leads me to believe that a “no pack” is deeming all blockers “out of play”.

Not trying to argue, just saying.

Section 6.11 does not apply to skaters returning to the track from the penalty box because she has no previous on track position to better; she was not on the track, she was in the box.

Skaters returning to the track from the penalty box are, however, subject to Illegal Procedure penalties.  See 6.13.9, 6.13.10, 6.13.22, and 6.13.23.
The Gorram Reaver
Mad Rollin' Dolls, Madison, WI

Offline Jeff Just ice

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Re: Cutting formost blocker in no pack
« Reply #12 on: October 15, 2012, 12:29:03 am »
Ok, maybe the question is hard to understand, I know what you guys are saying concerning entering the track while there is a “pack”.

1. Rule 6.13.9 “in front of a pack skater”
2. Rule 6.13.10 “in front of a pack skater”
3. Rule 6.13.22 “in front of a pack skater”
4. Rule 6.13.23 “in front of a pack skater”

If there is “no pack” there are no pack skaters to foul against. So we are talking about a “no pack scenario” does this make all the blockers “out of play”? That's the question.

Just saying.

Offline The Gorram Reaver

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Re: Cutting formost blocker in no pack
« Reply #13 on: October 15, 2012, 01:28:05 am »
If there is “no pack” there are no pack skaters to foul against. So we are talking about a “no pack scenario” does this make all the blockers “out of play”? That's the question.

OK.  I was confused because you were referencing Uri's answer to question #3, which is about reentry from the penalty box, and citing a rule about Cutting, which does not apply to penalty box reentry.  Now that it's clear what you're asking about....

Yes, all Blockers are out of play during a No Pack situation.

I'm still not sure what questions it is you have in relation to this.  If it's about cutting, yes, cutting penalties still apply during a No Pack situation when the skaters being cut are not down or out of bounds, even though Blockers are out of play (see 6.11.12 and 6.11.18).  If it's about reentry from the penalty box, the illegal procedure penalties I cited in my previous post are specifically to be applied to entry in front of pack skaters, so those penalties cannot be issued during a No Pack.

I hope that helps.
The Gorram Reaver
Mad Rollin' Dolls, Madison, WI

Offline Jeff Just ice

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Re: Cutting formost blocker in no pack
« Reply #14 on: October 15, 2012, 02:53:43 am »
Ok, sorry I’ll try this again.

Rule 6.11.3 - A skater who has re-entered the track in front of a downed, out of bounds, or out of play skater is not bettering her position. However, such skaters are subject to cutting the track penalties for other in-play skaters and are still subject to skating out of bounds penalties.

Question: If “no pack” is called and this deems all blockers “out of play”, how can a player re-entering the track in front of “out of play” skaters be considered cutting the track on any of them?

Sorry for the confusion of the question, it’s the rules that sort of twist other rules by way of interpretation.

Thanks again.

 

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