intruder

Menu

ZH Classifieds
ZH Files
ZH Staff
WFTDA 12/1/2014 Rules
WFTDA 3/1/2014 Rules

Donate

Please Support Zebra Huddle!

Recent Posts

Re: "Pincer" blocks = multipayer? by Bluebeard
July 11, 2019, 06:30:49 pm

"Pincer" blocks = multipayer? by Rego_Derby
July 11, 2019, 01:08:36 am

Re: Jammer Scoring Theory by Major Wood
June 26, 2019, 09:59:33 pm

Jammer Scoring Theory by Rego_Derby
June 25, 2019, 04:30:03 am

Re: Clamping down with the upper arm by bmd (2113)
June 12, 2019, 07:54:29 pm

Re: Ref facepaint by Major Wood
June 12, 2019, 04:16:34 pm

Re: Ref facepaint by Rego_Derby
June 11, 2019, 11:35:08 pm

Re: Ref facepaint by Axis of Stevil
June 10, 2019, 06:56:10 pm

Re: Ref facepaint by Major Wood
June 10, 2019, 01:49:04 pm

Ref facepaint by Rego_Derby
June 09, 2019, 03:38:38 pm

Author Topic: Jammer re-entering from the penalty box  (Read 7381 times)

Offline Landin Flat

  • Referee
  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 27
  • Stats Sheet: -1
  • League Affiliation: Hellgate Roller Derby
  • Referee Certification Level: Level 2
  • NSO Certification Level: Not Certified
Jammer re-entering from the penalty box
« on: October 16, 2012, 12:58:38 am »
Last week at scrimmage practice we had a situation where a jammer was released from the penalty box and re-entered the track within the forward engagement zone. She then sped up to catch up to the rear of the pack to begin her initial pass. The jam ref chose a no impact/ no penalty stating that she gained nothing, but the front IPR called her on a major IP citing 6.13.22. From the description I believe the IPR was correct, but the rules are a little vague in this regard. I did turn up this(http://www.zebrahuddle.com/index.php?topic=2942.msg38117#msg38117) short thread in my search, but am wondering if this applies to both situations.

Thanks
-LandinFlat

Offline Shaun Ketterman

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 819
  • Stats Sheet: 42
  • Rush Zeta Epsilon Beta! ZEEBS! ZEEBS! ZEEBS!
  • League Affiliation: Rollergirls of Central Kentucky (ROCK)
  • Referee Certification Level: Level 3
  • NSO Certification Level: Not Certified
Re: Jammer re-entering from the penalty box
« Reply #1 on: October 16, 2012, 05:20:27 am »
The re-entering jammer should've been given the major illegal re-entry.  You've already linked the post where I gave the rules reasons for this so...
WFTDA Level 3 Certified Referee
MRDA Recognized Referee
Zebrahuddle.com Moderator
Head Referee, Rollergirls of Central Kentucky
Lexington, Kentucky

You can call me "Shaun". My shirts say "Ketterman" because they're sports jersies. Only kids and mascots put first names on jersies!

Offline Darkjester

  • Has Too Much Damn Time Member
  • ********************
  • Posts: 3067
  • Stats Sheet: 39
  • "When in doubt, RTFM"
  • League Affiliation: Beach Brawl SK8R Dolls
  • Referee Certification Level: Not Certified
  • NSO Certification Level: Not Certified
Re: Jammer re-entering from the penalty box
« Reply #2 on: October 16, 2012, 08:04:01 am »
For discussion purposes..

How far ahead of the pack does the returning Jammer have to be to be considered "really far behind" the pack since the rules quoted say nothing about Engagement zones.
Madness Tolls
69¢
Beach Brawl Sk8R Dolls
Fort Walton Beach FL

Offline Shaun Ketterman

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 819
  • Stats Sheet: 42
  • Rush Zeta Epsilon Beta! ZEEBS! ZEEBS! ZEEBS!
  • League Affiliation: Rollergirls of Central Kentucky (ROCK)
  • Referee Certification Level: Level 3
  • NSO Certification Level: Not Certified
Re: Jammer re-entering from the penalty box
« Reply #3 on: October 16, 2012, 12:46:16 pm »
Outside of the engagement zone; it's only outside of the engagement zone that the term "pack skater" becomes irrelevant.   
WFTDA Level 3 Certified Referee
MRDA Recognized Referee
Zebrahuddle.com Moderator
Head Referee, Rollergirls of Central Kentucky
Lexington, Kentucky

You can call me "Shaun". My shirts say "Ketterman" because they're sports jersies. Only kids and mascots put first names on jersies!

Offline Major Wood

  • Administrator
  • Has Too Much Damn Time Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2663
  • Stats Sheet: 77
  • League Affiliation: Nashville Rollergirls
  • Referee Certification Level: Level 5
  • NSO Certification Level: Not Certified
Re: Jammer re-entering from the penalty box
« Reply #4 on: October 16, 2012, 01:16:23 pm »
This is one that sees a lot of disagreement.
Personally, I agree with you, Shaun. Especially with a jammer, the argument I have gotten has been that the jammer is never a part of the pack. The claim is that the pack ends at the hips of the foremost pack skater.

I disagree with that and think that the engagement zone is the only good metric.

This is a good question to bring up with the head referee of each bout, because interpretations do vary.
Your friendly Zebra Huddle admin.

Nashville Roller Derby Head Ref
WFTDA Level 5 Certified Referee

I speak only of my opinions and interpretations.

Offline Darkjester

  • Has Too Much Damn Time Member
  • ********************
  • Posts: 3067
  • Stats Sheet: 39
  • "When in doubt, RTFM"
  • League Affiliation: Beach Brawl SK8R Dolls
  • Referee Certification Level: Not Certified
  • NSO Certification Level: Not Certified
Re: Jammer re-entering from the penalty box
« Reply #5 on: October 16, 2012, 03:03:22 pm »
FWIW I've always called the the same, but I too have gotten some disagreements regarding it since it is one of the rules where the general term "Skater" is used versus Jammer/Blocker.
Madness Tolls
69¢
Beach Brawl Sk8R Dolls
Fort Walton Beach FL

Offline Shaun Ketterman

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 819
  • Stats Sheet: 42
  • Rush Zeta Epsilon Beta! ZEEBS! ZEEBS! ZEEBS!
  • League Affiliation: Rollergirls of Central Kentucky (ROCK)
  • Referee Certification Level: Level 3
  • NSO Certification Level: Not Certified
Re: Jammer re-entering from the penalty box
« Reply #6 on: October 16, 2012, 03:09:36 pm »
I'm having trouble understanding how someone could think that just because a jammer isn't a part of the pack that she can't be liable for re-entering the track in front of pack skaters. 
WFTDA Level 3 Certified Referee
MRDA Recognized Referee
Zebrahuddle.com Moderator
Head Referee, Rollergirls of Central Kentucky
Lexington, Kentucky

You can call me "Shaun". My shirts say "Ketterman" because they're sports jersies. Only kids and mascots put first names on jersies!

Offline reflmao

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 381
  • Stats Sheet: 21
Re: Jammer re-entering from the penalty box
« Reply #7 on: October 16, 2012, 03:27:31 pm »
It's not that she's not liable.  It's a question of where the break between in front and way behind is.

I've seen people argue for:
* Immedietly in front of front-most pack skater.
* 10 ft in front of front-most pack skater.
* 20 ft in front of front-most pack skater.
* halfway around the track from front of front-most pack skater.
RCRD, Rochester, NY

Offline Major Wood

  • Administrator
  • Has Too Much Damn Time Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2663
  • Stats Sheet: 77
  • League Affiliation: Nashville Rollergirls
  • Referee Certification Level: Level 5
  • NSO Certification Level: Not Certified
Re: Jammer re-entering from the penalty box
« Reply #8 on: October 16, 2012, 03:37:31 pm »
To me, that is the grey area. How far ahead must you be in order to be considered behind.

There is significant support for the idea that you must be behind the foremost pack skater, because the pack does not extend past her hips. I disagree with it, but it's there.
Your friendly Zebra Huddle admin.

Nashville Roller Derby Head Ref
WFTDA Level 5 Certified Referee

I speak only of my opinions and interpretations.

Offline Landin Flat

  • Referee
  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 27
  • Stats Sheet: -1
  • League Affiliation: Hellgate Roller Derby
  • Referee Certification Level: Level 2
  • NSO Certification Level: Not Certified
Re: Jammer re-entering from the penalty box
« Reply #9 on: October 16, 2012, 03:54:22 pm »
Thank you all for this discussion- That gray area about what is in front, versus what is behind has been the topic of a fair amount of conversation this week.

Offline PackMan

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 475
  • Stats Sheet: 11
  • League Affiliation: Little City Roller Girls / Appalachian Roller Girls
  • Referee Certification Level: Not Certified
  • NSO Certification Level: Not Certified
Re: Jammer re-entering from the penalty box
« Reply #10 on: October 16, 2012, 05:56:09 pm »
Since the rule about not entering in front of pack skaters applies to all skaters it makes sense to me that the deviding line between in front and way behind must be the foremost edge of the engagement zone.  Following is the logic:

Blockers are required to be/remain in the EZ.  If they leave the EZ, they are required to reenter from the end which they exited.  If the line were drawn anywhere between the foremost pack skater and the front of the EZ, a blocker who entered in that area (in the EZ but ahead of the foremost pack skater) would be put in a position that demands her to race around the track in derby direction to catch up to the pack, but that would also be forcing her to leave the EZ, and  get penalized for failure to return.  One rule cannot force a skater to break another rule.

If however the line is drawn at the front of the EZ, a blocker reentering the track ahead of that line is correctly attempting to return to the EZ by racing around the track in derby direction.  No penalty.  If she reenters ahead of the foremost pack skater and within the EZ, then she gets penalized for the illegal reentry, and has no need to break any other rules.

Offline Major Puddles

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 241
  • Stats Sheet: 2
Re: Jammer re-entering from the penalty box
« Reply #11 on: October 17, 2012, 01:00:15 am »
If a jammer entered from the box 10ft in front of the pack, inside the engagement zone, and it was her initial pass, wouldn't that be a completion of her initial pass? She wouldn't get lead obviously, but she has still been inside the engagement zone, and then left it. This, to me, is one of the issues of allowing skaters to enter into the engagement zone. They are also entering into that pass. I could be wrong about that, but that's how it appears to me.

Offline Major Wood

  • Administrator
  • Has Too Much Damn Time Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2663
  • Stats Sheet: 77
  • League Affiliation: Nashville Rollergirls
  • Referee Certification Level: Level 5
  • NSO Certification Level: Not Certified
Re: Jammer re-entering from the penalty box
« Reply #12 on: October 17, 2012, 01:11:05 am »
I haven't thought of that, but I call this as a major IP.
Your friendly Zebra Huddle admin.

Nashville Roller Derby Head Ref
WFTDA Level 5 Certified Referee

I speak only of my opinions and interpretations.

Offline Darkjester

  • Has Too Much Damn Time Member
  • ********************
  • Posts: 3067
  • Stats Sheet: 39
  • "When in doubt, RTFM"
  • League Affiliation: Beach Brawl SK8R Dolls
  • Referee Certification Level: Not Certified
  • NSO Certification Level: Not Certified
Re: Jammer re-entering from the penalty box
« Reply #13 on: October 17, 2012, 08:00:35 am »
If a jammer entered from the box 10ft in front of the pack, inside the engagement zone, and it was her initial pass, wouldn't that be a completion of her initial pass? She wouldn't get lead obviously, but she has still been inside the engagement zone, and then left it. This, to me, is one of the issues of allowing skaters to enter into the engagement zone. They are also entering into that pass. I could be wrong about that, but that's how it appears to me.

That's where the conundrum lies.
If you consider it in front of the pack and she exits the legal engagement zone for a Pass. Its a Major IP as Wood stated.

If you consider it REALLY FAR BEHIND the pack and she isn't in the engagement zone=No IP, but must fully lap the pack.

My opinion is this is one where the rules don't say specifically "Must enter ahead of the engagement zone" however, its implied.
So from my interpretation until WFTDA/FAQ/Clinic or Specific Bout HR tells me otherwise.


Immediately in front of Pack-IPR
10 Feet in front of Pack-IPR
19.9 Feet in Front of Pack-IPR
20.1 Feet in front of Pack-No Penalty and REALLY far behind.
Madness Tolls
69¢
Beach Brawl Sk8R Dolls
Fort Walton Beach FL

Offline Shaun Ketterman

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 819
  • Stats Sheet: 42
  • Rush Zeta Epsilon Beta! ZEEBS! ZEEBS! ZEEBS!
  • League Affiliation: Rollergirls of Central Kentucky (ROCK)
  • Referee Certification Level: Level 3
  • NSO Certification Level: Not Certified
Re: Jammer re-entering from the penalty box
« Reply #14 on: October 17, 2012, 01:23:09 pm »
If a jammer entered from the box 10ft in front of the pack, inside the engagement zone, and it was her initial pass, wouldn't that be a completion of her initial pass? She wouldn't get lead obviously, but she has still been inside the engagement zone, and then left it. This, to me, is one of the issues of allowing skaters to enter into the engagement zone. They are also entering into that pass. I could be wrong about that, but that's how it appears to me.

The basis for my argument is that 6.13.9 and 22 state that it's illegal to re-enter in front of pack skaters.  It doesn't say how far in front of pack skaters.  The fact that it uses "in front of" as the only metric to judge by means to me that setting 5, 10 or 15 feet as far enough in front of the pack to not be penalized is an arbitrary measurement that is basically just made up.  In front of is in front of; therefore the only legal way for a player to re-enter is behind the pack.  More than 20 feet ahead of the first pack skater is behind the pack; 1 inch behind the last pack skater is behind the pack.
« Last Edit: October 17, 2012, 03:27:50 pm by Shaun Ketterman »
WFTDA Level 3 Certified Referee
MRDA Recognized Referee
Zebrahuddle.com Moderator
Head Referee, Rollergirls of Central Kentucky
Lexington, Kentucky

You can call me "Shaun". My shirts say "Ketterman" because they're sports jersies. Only kids and mascots put first names on jersies!

 

Featured Product

 

Zebra Huddle Head Referee Bout Booklet

 

Featured Classifieds


ZH Files

How to Score a Point in Roller Derby
Rating: *****
Downloads: 3211
Views: 5104
Filesize: 327.61KB
Date: January 17, 2017, 04:21:03 am
Comments (0)
By: AdamSmasher
June 2013 Ruleset situational questions
Rating: *****
Downloads: 2311
Views: 4757
Filesize: 29.71KB
Date: February 07, 2014, 04:57:32 pm
Comments (2)
By: Crash Test Ref
Rules Q&A and Publications for 6/15/13 Document
Rating: (None)
Downloads: 2466
Views: 5303
Filesize: 26.27KB
Date: August 02, 2013, 04:10:40 pm
Comments (0)
By: Shaun Ketterman
Rules Q&A and Publications for 1/1/13 Document (4/24/13 Updates)
Rating: *****
Downloads: 3248
Views: 5299
Filesize: 28.07KB
Date: April 25, 2013, 05:45:34 pm
Comments (0)
By: Shaun Ketterman

Powered by EzPortal