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Author Topic: NSO Positioning with New Rule Set  (Read 6886 times)

Offline Eject You Later

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Re: NSO Positioning with New Rule Set
« Reply #15 on: December 01, 2012, 03:19:52 pm »
The jam timer should be keying off of the scoreboard, and in the set up we normally use, an outside jam timer would have a really hard time watching the scoreboard, the pack, and the refs.

I'm not certain why the JT will need to be watching the pack given single whistle starts.
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Offline bjmacke

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Re: NSO Positioning with New Rule Set
« Reply #16 on: December 01, 2012, 05:18:56 pm »
Remember that was works in a scrimmage can be disastrously bad in an actual game. The outside JT might work okay because you have a low-noise scrimmage. If you've got a 2-minute calloff and every pack ref is on the opposite side of the track; you might get a late-called jam if the refs can't hear the whistle.

Also remember that all jam start and stop whistles start from the infield at the moment. It would be a change of perception to have a jam stopped from the outside.
also known as Apron, if you didn't know already.

Offline jmhgn

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Re: NSO Positioning with New Rule Set
« Reply #17 on: December 01, 2012, 08:57:30 pm »
Just a couple of responses...

...As far as it being OK for the fouled out skater to be removed from the track between jams, I have to disagree.  I believe it should be done immediately.  Yes, the team has a disadvantage by skating without her but she is also taking up a spot in the penalty box.  If she is removed immediately there would be no need to postpone a third blocker penalty.

...I had thought about moving Jam Timer outside but than I probably over thought this.  The pack is lined up before the jam starts and the first thing they will be doing is making a left turn.  Their focus is probably to the left and (with us at least) as well as blowing the whistle to start the jam, our jam timer drops his hand as a visual cue.  Having him on the inside keeps him in the sight line of the pack.

Offline Numb3r Crunch3r

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Re: NSO Positioning with New Rule Set
« Reply #18 on: December 01, 2012, 11:51:09 pm »
Just a couple of responses...

...As far as it being OK for the fouled out skater to be removed from the track between jams, I have to disagree.  I believe it should be done immediately.  Yes, the team has a disadvantage by skating without her but she is also taking up a spot in the penalty box.  If she is removed immediately there would be no need to postpone a third blocker penalty.

Actually, even after removing a fouled-out skater, their seat is considered 'occupied' for all purposes. I have even heard of leagues keeping a traffic cone in the penalty box to place on a fouled-out seat that they were timing.

The reason for this is to avoid a situation where a fouled-out skater has been removed, but still has 15 seconds left on her time at the end of the jam. In the meantime, two other blockers have entered the box and are both seated (leaving one blocker still on the track). Jam ends and the team is allowed to make a substitution in the box for the fouled out skater - except they can't, because she has nowhere to sit.

Allowing another skater to occupy her seat while she still has time left (at least, more than ten seconds left, after which time she would be 'standing' anyway) potentially makes the other team unable to field a full line-up in the next jam - an 'additional' punishment for the foul-out which should not have occurred.

Offline DocSkinner

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Re: NSO Positioning with New Rule Set
« Reply #19 on: December 02, 2012, 12:13:57 am »
I am generally in favor of an outside Jam Timer, although my biggest concern would actually be communication with the head ref about the need for an official timeout. Very often the 30-second timer is getting close to 5 seconds left and the refs are still talking with a captain or a coach or among themselves. It is helpful to be able to just get their attention with a quick wave followed by a shoulder tap and a questioning look. From the outside, it would be a lot harder to get a feel for it a timeout is needed.

Offline Eject You Later

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Re: NSO Positioning with New Rule Set
« Reply #20 on: December 02, 2012, 02:10:19 am »
...As far as it being OK for the fouled out skater to be removed from the track between jams, I have to disagree.  I believe it should be done immediately.  Yes, the team has a disadvantage by skating without her but she is also taking up a spot in the penalty box.  If she is removed immediately there would be no need to postpone a third blocker penalty.

As Cruncher articulated, that seat is occupied for as long as the penalty time requires, whether the skater fouls out or is expelled.  So removing her will not "free up the chair."  It is still occupied whether she is in it or not.

Second, if you go back and re-read my post, I specifically stated that I am comfortable removing a fouled out skater in between jams if her penalty time would not otherwise expire during the jam.  So the chair would still be occupied regardless, she is in no danger of re-entering play, therefore she is a lower priority than keeping two inside referees on the pack.
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Offline FNZebra

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Re: NSO Positioning with New Rule Set
« Reply #21 on: December 02, 2012, 04:06:18 am »
As stated already, the seat of the fouled out skater is occupied until their penalty time has completed. None other from their team may be seated until the time for her to stand arrives.

The requirements of 7.4.1.1 are that the FO skater will not be permitted to return to play. 7.4.1.2 says she must immediately leave the track, and no mid-jam substitute for the FO skater may happen.

So let me do some thinking out loud for the situation where her time will end in the midst of the jam, and the HR is too busy to leave the middle.

I'm leaning toward thinking she has left the track, if she is in the penalty box. Let her sit & do her time, and to stand when instructed, so a teammate could sit, if one is penalized. Then the PBM simply doesn't release that FO skater from the box (AND should let her know she has fouled out & won't be released). She has not returned to play. At end of jam, she is escorted away.

This can all be pre-arranged when the HR is told that skater was in danger of fouling out.

If she interferes with play in any way from there, you could stop the jam in response to the major, remove her completely, and her substitute would serve an additional Insub penalty, plus any others she may have racked up during her interference.
You will bout as you practice.


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FN Zebra
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Offline Samuel Bergus

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Re: NSO Positioning with New Rule Set
« Reply #22 on: December 02, 2012, 05:10:42 am »
I'm leaning toward thinking she has left the track, if she is in the penalty box. Let her sit & do her time, and to stand when instructed, so a teammate could sit, if one is penalized. Then the PBM simply doesn't release that FO skater from the box (AND should let her know she has fouled out & won't be released). She has not returned to play. At end of jam, she is escorted away.


I find this fairly intriguing, as it is a large shift from the standard procedures we currently use, but it would allow for all the refs to continue to keep their eyes of the skaters without any impact on the mechanics of penalty enforcement.

One issue I would raise, this would create a situation where the penalty box becomes responsible for holding the fouled out skater in a type of standing purgatory, but the penalty box does not have the official record of penalties. The only thing the penalty box knows is how many times a certain skater has reported to the box, which should be the same, but isn't always the case.

Offline FNZebra

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Re: NSO Positioning with New Rule Set
« Reply #23 on: December 02, 2012, 02:34:10 pm »
This can all be pre-arranged when the HR is told that skater was in danger of fouling out.

The PBM is holding the FO skater under the direct instruction from the HR, they are not free-lancing, and just deciding to do this on their own.

The Penalty Timer paperwork is optional, but vital. It is easy to keep. The newest version makes verifying skater trips fast and simple. Works faster when comparing to the IWB (can happen mid-jam, then confirm certain skaters with the PT between jams; this was procedure at Big5), but even against the PT's official record, this can happen easily between jams for the few skaters who may be in danger of fouling out.

The PBM holding would only be permitted if the foul out happens in a non-inflammatory situation. With a very emotionally-charged foul & penalty or for any expulsion situation, the HR should either leave the inside mid-jam, or stop the jam.
You will bout as you practice.


Cheers,

FN Zebra
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Offline Samuel Bergus

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Re: NSO Positioning with New Rule Set
« Reply #24 on: December 02, 2012, 03:12:29 pm »
I'm not certain why the JT will need to be watching the pack given single whistle starts.

The jam timer doesn't need to be watching the skaters in the pack as much as watching the refs who are near the pack, in order to make sure they are all ready for the next jam to start, and aren't calling a TO or OTO right before the next jam should start.

 

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