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Author Topic: Why we have categories of illegal blocks (Split from "high block" signal)  (Read 4543 times)

Offline Darkjester

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It'd be cool in the future to streamline the elbow/hands/forearms/backblocks/highblocks/etc.,

Into 1 Illegal Block.

This would cause much less confusion for Penalty keepers with Refs reporting the same penalty ( ie. 1 ref reports it an Elbow, the 2nd Ref reports it a Back block.)

Then you could keep the Gross Misconduct for the shots to the noggin, jumping to block, etc., the "severe" stuff.

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Offline Major Wood

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Why we have categories of illegal blocks (Split from "high block" signal)
« Reply #1 on: April 21, 2009, 05:18:06 pm »
In your scenario, the first ref is wrong. A block to an illegal target zone takes precedence over a block with an illegal blocking zone. So an elbow to the back is a back block.

Simplifying it to illegal block (imho) would be a large step backwards.
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Offline Darkjester

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Why we have categories of illegal blocks (Split from "high block" signal)
« Reply #2 on: April 21, 2009, 08:05:11 pm »
I agree that the first ref would have made a poor choice, however that's also a 'best practice' not a rule/law. It also doesn't mean that the actions don't occur. I wouldn't consider it a step backward, but a step forward in simplifying the rule set.

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Offline Major Wood

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Why we have categories of illegal blocks (Split from "high block" signal)
« Reply #3 on: April 21, 2009, 09:20:33 pm »
Simplifying the ruleset in that manner would mean simplifying the very helpful stats. Good penalty trackers are keeping track of what penalties are called, as well as the ref calling them. Those stats can help skaters learn if they have any bad habits that they might not notice otherwise. They can also help a more experienced ref see that some of their ref staff is focusing too much on one type of penalty or not calling penalties that are likely happening right in front of them (for example, a jammer ref not calling cutting the track penalties might indicate that they aren't watching for them)
Of course, stats are definitely only a helpful tool, not the only thing to be used to make assessments.

I think simplicity in that manner is not a step forward. Clarity is the step forward, in my opinion.
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Offline Major Wood

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Why we have categories of illegal blocks (Split from "high block" signal)
« Reply #4 on: April 21, 2009, 09:21:41 pm »
I find it interesting how many different thoughts there are on this hand signal and the difference between high blocks and blocking with the head penalties.
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Offline Rev. Riot

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Why we have categories of illegal blocks (Split from "high block" signal)
« Reply #5 on: April 22, 2009, 12:56:45 am »
Jester: The reason that that's not ideal is the reason we have the best practice of deferring to the target zone.

Imagine a scenario where two referees see a blocker back block an opponent with her forearms.

If they use the hierarchy correctly, they'll both report a back block on the same blocker at roughly the same time. The penalty tracker can then rightfully discount one of those as a repeat.

If they don't use the hierarchy (or forget it), one reports it as a back block, the other as a forearms. The penalty tracker doesn't know they're the same, and the player is penalized twice for the same penalty.

Now imagine a situation where a player back blocks someone and then, separately, forearms past her. Each action is seen by one referee.

With distinct calls, each referee reports their penalty, one a forearm, the other a back block, they are rightfully recorded as two separate penalties.

With simply an "illegal block" call, two refs call an IB on that player at the same time, the penalty tracker assumes they're the same and discards one as a duplicate. Whoops. And the referee can't double check because the only thing recorded is an IB.

Conan, I don't feel it's contradictory, I feel like it's differently weighted, but consistent. We only have penalty signals for penalties. Every penalty has a signal associated with it. Some fall under more generic signals, some have more specific signals determined by the need to clarify. But that's just my opinion.

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Offline Darkjester

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Why we have categories of illegal blocks (Split from "high block" signal)
« Reply #6 on: April 22, 2009, 03:19:08 am »
I don't disagree, in fact I fully believe in the Heirarchy of calls in the Best Practices, but I know not all the refs use them as much as they should.

From what you posted I could see where such an issue could occur regardless of hierarchy of calls, that if duplicate calls are going to occur they'll occur regardless, it had just made me think as last bout my wife was pulled for 4 minors in the same 'cycle' of a jam, when she asked the Penalty Tracker about it they said "Two simultaneous elbows, a back block and a (something I don't remember). "  What I'm thinking occured was multiple refs reported the same elbow penalty/Back block, not that she couldn't have done all four fouls in the same 15 seconds, but it would be pretty difficult to get a elbow on two different opponents at the same time.

We also had a BRAND new NSO team..

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Offline Major Wood

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Why we have categories of illegal blocks (Split from "high block" signal)
« Reply #7 on: April 22, 2009, 04:17:56 am »
it wouldn't have to be two different opponents. She could have blocked the same skater twice using her elbow in an illegal manner.
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Offline Conan

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Every penalty has a signal associated with it. Some fall under more generic signals, some have more specific signals determined by the need to clarify.
Rev.

I get that.  But here's my issue: We have a description in section 6 for Blocking with the Head but no Hand Signal for that.  We have no description in section 6 for High Block, but we have a hand signal for that. 
Apparently, some tournament experienced leagues have managed to patch a system together grouping both of those fouls under one hand signal.  Fine.  But the penalties are not similar at all.   
To further complicate, High Blocking is only mentioned under Gross Misconduct.

On the whole, Section 6 and the Hand Signals doc parallel each other really well, except for this particular foul.  There should be a High Block area in Section 6 and a separate hand signal for Blocking with the Head.  Crystal Clarity.   
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Offline Gravity Kills

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When I'm penalty-tracking and I get two penalties for the same girl simultaneously from two different refs, I always clarify at the end of the jam. As for merging all illegal blocks into one category, I agree that doing this would take away some very vital stats.  It's not like there are a hundred different types of illegal blocks... it's just a handful, and having a skater be able to see that she's back-blocking like mad or using her hands too much is pretty important.
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Offline Darkjester

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it wouldn't have to be two different opponents. She could have blocked the same skater twice using her elbow in an illegal manner.

Not saying it 'couldn't' have happened, but for it to have been a minor vs a no impact she'd have had to at least nudge them off balance/adjust stance with both elbows. That or the refs on the crew were calling every time they saw a chicken wing a minor elbow regardless of impact. Which is also possible as she does have a problem chicken winging.

Riot pointed out very well that the possibility for multiple reporting of the same foul could occur either way.
I'm thinking I need to try and get our league to go ahead and make someone from our league a "Head Ref" so we can start training the NSO's instead of minutes before the bout saying "Ok.. you do this, this and this.. but not this.."

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Offline Scoldin' Girls

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Every penalty has a signal associated with it. Some fall under more generic signals, some have more specific signals determined by the need to clarify.
Rev.

I get that.  But here's my issue: We have a description in section 6 for Blocking with the Head but no Hand Signal for that.  We have no description in section 6 for High Block, but we have a hand signal for that. 
Apparently, some tournament experienced leagues have managed to patch a system together grouping both of those fouls under one hand signal.  Fine.  But the penalties are not similar at all.   
To further complicate, High Blocking is only mentioned under Gross Misconduct.

On the whole, Section 6 and the Hand Signals doc parallel each other really well, except for this particular foul.  There should be a High Block area in Section 6 and a separate hand signal for Blocking with the Head.  Crystal Clarity.   

Conan, this was exactly my point and the source of my initial confusion.  (looks like this should go back under the "high block" thread)
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Offline Poobah

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I agree that the first ref would have made a poor choice, however that's also a 'best practice' not a rule/law. It also doesn't mean that the actions don't occur. I wouldn't consider it a step backward, but a step forward in simplifying the rule set.

It would make my penalty trackers' jobs considerably simpler.

However, it would also make the penalty stats I provide to the skaters and coaches considerably less useful in cleaning up a skater's game.

Hence I have to agree with Major Wood that it would be a major step backward.

Which is more useful: "You back blocked a lot while you were jamming, and were a little bit handsy and you got caught chickenwinging once."

Or "Lots of illegal blocks. I don't remember exactly what they were, the refs never said."
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