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Author Topic: Multiplayer blocking  (Read 43552 times)

Offline Crotch Rock-It

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Multiplayer blocking
« on: January 12, 2009, 11:00:12 pm »
I had a question about multiplayer blocking in another unrelated thread, so I'll start a new thread about it here.  My question was in response to a post by Darkjester that mentioned multiplayer blocking.  I'll quote the original thread here for reference.

Quote from: Darkjester on January 11, 2009, 08:20:18 PM
Quote
The third one is the one what did it for me, during a 'wall drill' where two players build a wall and a third player has to break it, The wall duo ( one of them my wife) skated next to each other, extended their arms over and crossed them against the other persons chest forming an X in between the two of them. When I informed them that constituted an illegal multiplayer block ( players grabbing, holding, linking or joining..)

The captain who was at the back of the pack and not even in position to see what occurred wanted to argue that its NOT a multiplayer block, because they didn't 'link' arms. When I informed her it didn't have to be a link, just a joining, holding, or grabbing would suffice. She argued. When I grabbed the rulebook copy and read it to her, she asked if I had the definition for "joining".


Quote from: Crotch Rock-It on January 12, 2009, 01:05:48 PM
Quote


Quote from: Jessticular Fortitude on January 12, 2009, 01:12:39 PM
Quote
It really depends on what is going on around them at the time.

If they are touching/grabbing/doing something to completely take away the space between 2 bodies, but nobody is trying to go between them: no penalty.

If they are touching/grabbing/doing something to completely take away the space between 2 bodies, and someone is trying to go between them, and they release before 3 seconds: minor penalty

If they are touching/grabbing/doing something to completely take away the space between 2 bodies, someone is trying to go between them, but they continue to stay together for 3+ seconds: major penalty

In other words, the wording doesn't really matter. If they are joined in some fashion and an opposing skater is trying to go through, THAT's what matters, not really HOW they are joined. Touching, handholding, crossed arms, loving embraces all mean the same thing when it comes to multiplayer blocks.


Does that answer your question?


So...I'd like to get responses from other refs to see if Jessticular Fortitude is on the right track.  If she is, then it seems like two blockers skating shoulder-to-shoulder would also be considered a multiplayer block, right?  But wait, that goes against 6.2.7.5!   ???

Any experts on this rule that want to chime in would be appreciated! 

Offline Jessticular Fortitude

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Re: Multiplayer blocking
« Reply #1 on: January 12, 2009, 11:27:12 pm »
Yeah.. the more I think about it.. the more my answer doesn't sound right... so please, correct me!

I want to preface (after the fact...) my answer by saying that somebody I respect, but I can't remember who, told me that simply crossing arms to form an X (not necessarily linked- do you all get the distinction?) was considered a MP block if another skater was trying to get through. That may not be right now that I think about it, but that's what I based that response on.

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Offline Darkjester

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Re: Multiplayer blocking
« Reply #2 on: January 13, 2009, 01:41:18 am »
My opinion on it matches the above. The difference between two skaters 'touching' shoulder to shoulder, is they aren't holding each other.

The 'arms crossed over at the elbows, touching each others chest' is a hold. Its would be similar to me holding a friend back from a fight by placing the flat of my hand on his chest and using my weight and momentum to keep him for moving forward. If I just 'leaned' against him shoulder to shoulder, I'm not holding him back or vice versa.

But, as stated in the first two words, its just my opinion.

I'm totally open for more experienced minds.
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Offline Johnny Zebra

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Re: Multiplayer blocking
« Reply #3 on: January 13, 2009, 02:32:14 am »
Ah . . . the multiplayer block. Okay, here goes:

grabbing, holding, linking or
joining fashion
in a multi-player block.
6.2.7.3 Touching and assisting teammates that does not create a wall to impede an
opponent is not a multi-player block.


The whole key to this is that bit in 6.2.7.3 about touching and creating a wall, and the bit in 6.2.7.2 about how the wall is created:

1. Are two players in sustained contact with each other in some way?
2. Is the specific effect of this contact that an opposing player is impeded?

If, and only if, the answer to both questions is an unqualified "yes" do you have a multiplayer block.

So, what's touching vs. grabbing, holding, linking or joining (especially joining)?

The key idea here is that the block is a sustained form of contact -- in the case of Darkjester's original question, the crossing of two players' arms in an "X" wall would be illegal, as it is sustained (and certainly the joining of the two players to create a wall) contact.

Regular shoulder to shoulder contact, on the other hand, is not sustained in the normal course of "skating close" -- but if two players were making a wall by explicitly pushing up against each other's shoulders while skating, that's a little more grey; I'd have to call it as it's happening, but my guiding principle would be whether their actions are a form of sustained contact that has the effect of creating a wall to impede an opponent.

Bottom line, though, if I were a skater, I wouldn't be trying to make anything that remotely resembles a wall other than by trying to skate nice and close, and elevator dooring anyone who tries to thread the needle.

~j.z.




« Last Edit: January 13, 2009, 02:41:57 am by Johnny Zebra »
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Offline Jessticular Fortitude

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Re: Multiplayer blocking
« Reply #4 on: January 13, 2009, 03:17:31 am »
The X I was talking about isn't one where the hands are on the other player, they were just pointed down and crossed with the player next to her. That's how it was described anyway. Would that be considered a MP block? It'd be easy to bust through if you were moving, because they're not holding hands, but it's still sort of impeding. Or did I just not understand what they were saying when they described the block?
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Offline Johnny Zebra

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Re: Multiplayer blocking
« Reply #5 on: January 13, 2009, 03:50:35 am »
The X I was talking about isn't one where the hands are on the other player, they were just pointed down and crossed with the player next to her. That's how it was described anyway. Would that be considered a MP block? It'd be easy to bust through if you were moving, because they're not holding hands, but it's still sort of impeding. Or did I just not understand what they were saying when they described the block?

Ah, I was responding to this "X":

Quote from:  Darkjester

The third one is the one what did it for me, during a 'wall drill' where two players build a wall and a third player has to break it, The wall duo ( one of them my wife) skated next to each other, extended their arms over and crossed them against the other persons chest forming an X in between the two of them.

What you describe (crossed hands) sounds pretty benign, like the skaters who "touch tips" when skating with their fingers. I'd need to see it in action though . . .  I could see how crossing the arms  higher up could easily become akin to linking/joining.

~j.z.
« Last Edit: January 13, 2009, 03:56:44 am by Johnny Zebra »
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Offline Rev. Riot

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Re: Multiplayer blocking
« Reply #6 on: January 13, 2009, 04:19:29 am »
I'm pretty confident that it's been clarified that there needs to be a clenching or grabbing, not just contact, if it's with an open hand it's legal. The original X block described should be legal if it's what I'm picturing.

It could stand to be further clarified.
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Offline Major Wood

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Re: Multiplayer blocking
« Reply #7 on: January 13, 2009, 04:24:06 am »
I'm pretty confident that it's been clarified that there needs to be a clenching or grabbing, not just contact, if it's with an open hand it's legal. The original X block described should be legal if it's what I'm picturing.

It could stand to be further clarified.

What is your opinion of the shoulder to shoulder positional block?
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Offline Johnny Zebra

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Re: Multiplayer blocking
« Reply #8 on: January 13, 2009, 04:30:16 am »
I'm pretty confident that it's been clarified that there needs to be a clenching or grabbing, not just contact, if it's with an open hand it's legal. The original X block described should be legal if it's what I'm picturing.

It could stand to be further clarified.

Huh. I'd agree that crossing arms over each others' bodies (as described below) could stand to be clarified, if it doesn't qualify as "joining."

Quote

The third one is the one what did it for me, during a 'wall drill' where two players build a wall and a third player has to break it, The wall duo skated next to each other, extended their arms over and crossed them against the other persons chest forming an X in between the two of them.

~j.z.
« Last Edit: January 13, 2009, 02:48:39 pm by Johnny Zebra »
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Offline Crotch Rock-It

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Re: Multiplayer blocking
« Reply #9 on: January 13, 2009, 04:31:26 am »
I'm pretty confident that it's been clarified that there needs to be a clenching or grabbing, not just contact, if it's with an open hand it's legal. The original X block described should be legal if it's what I'm picturing.

It could stand to be further clarified.

I was referring to an X where the blockers forearms are crossed, but the hands aren't touching anything.  To me, that seems legal.

Offline JoeXCore

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Re: Multiplayer blocking
« Reply #10 on: January 13, 2009, 12:19:25 pm »
I'm pretty confident that it's been clarified that there needs to be a clenching or grabbing, not just contact, if it's with an open hand it's legal. The original X block described should be legal if it's what I'm picturing.

It could stand to be further clarified.

What is your opinion of the shoulder to shoulder positional block?


I know you weren't asking me and I'm not WFTDA certified or anything, but that's very legal.

For muti player block there has to be some sort of hold
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Offline L8R SK8R

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Re: Multiplayer blocking
« Reply #11 on: January 13, 2009, 12:58:39 pm »
It seems to me that the intent of the rules is for one player to block out one player, allowing for another to assist for a short period of time, without a serious advantage of a tag team action. It seems very similar to a basketball player playing defense against and another playing coming in and creating a pick. They aren't touching each other, but use strategy to defend. Two players who are holding onto each other are creating an unfair advantage for them. Even in the original X example from Darkjester it is still an unfair advantage which should warrant a penalty. Even if two skaters are touching only at the hips, and they are impeding another player, then that should be a multiplayer block. The argument has been made that this isn't joining, but the word "joining" isn't calrified, and thus I think of term "joined at the hip." I can only infer from the rules that WFDTA intends for derby to be a sort of one on one game, much like basketball. It seems like they want to avoid the tag team blocks from the old school derby that, while maybe fun to watch, were ridiculously unfair and unsafe.

Just my thoughts.

Offline JoeXCore

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Re: Multiplayer blocking
« Reply #12 on: January 13, 2009, 02:44:46 pm »
Although I understand where you're coming from with your interpretation I completely disagree that the intent is to make it a one on one game.

I believe the intent of this rule is to prevent a completely impassible wall, and to prevent clotheline type maneuvers (to legal target zones).
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Offline Ballistic Whistle

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Re: Multiplayer blocking
« Reply #13 on: January 13, 2009, 03:29:33 pm »
I always took MPB to be anything you couldn't seperate by simply pulling one player off the other one. So if you have two skaters skating shoulder to shoulder, if I were to pull one of the players to the side they would simply lose contact.

However, if the players are grabbing or linked and I pulled one skater, the other would come with them and they would remain connected.

Simply having an arm across someone doesn't increase the stability of the MPB.

Offline Crash Hartless

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Re: Multiplayer blocking
« Reply #14 on: January 13, 2009, 03:46:52 pm »

I believe the intent of this rule is to prevent a completely impassible wall, and to prevent clotheline type maneuvers (to legal target zones).

I second your interp.
In my opinion, it seems that as long as the blockers in question are using their bodies to block in a legal fashion, they can skate close to eachother for as long as they like, and it is simply positional blocking. They have the potential to slow their opponent down or hold her until teammate can block her out of bounds or knock her down. It's essentially the same thing that an experienced skater can do alone (with great timing and effective booty blocks). Admittedly, the skater stuck behind them is at a disadvantage, but if she is not getting blocked with illegal blocking zones (i.e. arms/hands) and there is a chance she can squeeze between them (since they're not actually up against eachother) it's kosher. However, if they are not just positionally blocking, but are in fact up against each other for an extended period of time, they would be in violation for making a wall since 6.2.7.3 implies making a wall is illegal (touching and assisting teammates that does not create a wall to impede an
opponent is not a multi-player block).
Just my two cents.
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