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Author Topic: Multiplayer blocking  (Read 32112 times)

Offline Johnny Zebra

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Re: Multiplayer blocking
« Reply #15 on: January 13, 2009, 04:16:12 pm »
This is an excellent discussion!

6.2.7.2 Skaters may not use their hands, arms, or legs in any grabbing, holding, linking or joining fashion in a multi-player block.

6.2.7.3 Touching and assisting teammates that does not create a wall to impede an opponent is not a multi-player block.


Thinking about this after following a lot of the great input here, I think that the key is what defines a wall -- some (like me) have been seeing it as contact of a sustained nature that is not easy to break apart, while others have followed the idea of a wall being grabbing or clutching as a more specific indicator of what is not easy to break apart. 

It'd be nice to have an explicit definition of what is a wall, in the glossary, or a rule, but failing that, 6.2.7.2 gives us the closest thing we have: grabbing, holding, linking or joining. Yeah, joining is a little grey here, witness the discussion, but overall, that's what the language is, so pressed shoulder to shoulder, or even crossed arms over each others' torsos is less obviously that kind of connected contact.

So I'd err on the side not call such things as an MPB, pending some clarification, even if I personally think that the crossed arms over torsos comes damn close to what a wall is.

~j.z.
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Offline Ruth of All Evil

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Re: Multiplayer blocking
« Reply #16 on: January 13, 2009, 04:46:44 pm »
I always took MPB to be anything you couldn't seperate by simply pulling one player off the other one. So if you have two skaters skating shoulder to shoulder, if I were to pull one of the players to the side they would simply lose contact.

However, if the players are grabbing or linked and I pulled one skater, the other would come with them and they would remain connected.

Simply having an arm across someone doesn't increase the stability of the MPB.

I agree with this interpretation. I interpret a MPB as a block where the players wouldn't naturally separate if hit by an opposing skater.
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Offline L8R SK8R

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Re: Multiplayer blocking
« Reply #17 on: January 13, 2009, 04:51:55 pm »
I always took MPB to be anything you couldn't seperate by simply pulling one player off the other one. So if you have two skaters skating shoulder to shoulder, if I were to pull one of the players to the side they would simply lose contact.

However, if the players are grabbing or linked and I pulled one skater, the other would come with them and they would remain connected.

Simply having an arm across someone doesn't increase the stability of the MPB.
While I agree with this, in general, I still believe that arms crossed in front of each other would contitute a wall, since, if they are just touching shoulders, a player could sneak between them without touching any other body parts. The crossed arms creates a barrier between the two players, thus creating a wall. So while I rescind my original "one on one" statement, since others have made some good points regarding that, I still believe crossed arms is wrong, while touching shoulders is still legal.

Offline Crotch Rock-It

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Re: Multiplayer blocking
« Reply #18 on: January 13, 2009, 06:06:00 pm »

I believe the intent of this rule is to prevent a completely impassible wall, and to prevent clotheline type maneuvers (to legal target zones).

I second your interp.
In my opinion, it seems that as long as the blockers in question are using their bodies to block in a legal fashion, they can skate close to eachother for as long as they like, and it is simply positional blocking. They have the potential to slow their opponent down or hold her until teammate can block her out of bounds or knock her down. It's essentially the same thing that an experienced skater can do alone (with great timing and effective booty blocks). Admittedly, the skater stuck behind them is at a disadvantage, but if she is not getting blocked with illegal blocking zones (i.e. arms/hands) and there is a chance she can squeeze between them (since they're not actually up against eachother) it's kosher. However, if they are not just positionally blocking, but are in fact up against each other for an extended period of time, they would be in violation for making a wall since 6.2.7.3 implies making a wall is illegal (touching and assisting teammates that does not create a wall to impede an
opponent is not a multi-player block).
Just my two cents.
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But, the rules also state that ANY amount of time a wall is created is illegal, not just an extended period of time.  Less than three seconds is a minor, and more than three seconds is a major.

Minor Penalty
6.2.7.6 Maintaining a multi-player block to impede an opponent for less than three seconds but NOT causing her to fall or lose her relative position.

Major Penalty
6.2.7.7 Maintaining a multi-player block to impede an opponent, causing her to fall or lose her relative position.
6.2.7.8 Maintaining a multi-player block to impede an opponent, for more than three seconds but not necessarily causing her to fall or lose her relative position.

Offline JoeXCore

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Re: Multiplayer blocking
« Reply #19 on: January 13, 2009, 10:19:26 pm »
I always took MPB to be anything you couldn't seperate by simply pulling one player off the other one. So if you have two skaters skating shoulder to shoulder, if I were to pull one of the players to the side they would simply lose contact.

However, if the players are grabbing or linked and I pulled one skater, the other would come with them and they would remain connected.

Simply having an arm across someone doesn't increase the stability of the MPB.

I agree with this interpretation. I interpret a MPB as a block where the players wouldn't naturally separate if hit by an opposing skater.


agreed
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Offline Major Wood

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Re: Multiplayer blocking
« Reply #20 on: January 13, 2009, 10:49:35 pm »
I interpret a MPB as a block where the players wouldn't naturally separate if hit by an opposing skater.

I agree with this. But it brings the question of two blockers shoulder to shoulder and hip to hip. If blockers are creating a wall in this manner, the jammer would be unable to legally block them in a manner that would seperate the two blockers.
Now, whether this is prohibited by the rules is not especially clear. It's certainly not grabbing, holding or linking. But is it joining, or creating an illegal wall? I'm not so sure.
I hate nitpicking over wording.
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Offline L8R SK8R

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Re: Multiplayer blocking
« Reply #21 on: January 14, 2009, 02:52:28 pm »
I agree with this interpretation. I interpret a MPB as a block where the players wouldn't naturally separate if hit by an opposing skater.
What do you define as separate? In the original arms crossed over chest example they would be able to separate sideways, but not front and back. They would be held back by either their arm or the other's. There is a reason why "Derby Position" is skating with your arms shoulder width apart, elbows bent, hands in front. Derby Position helps prevent illegal actions, like MPB.

Offline Darkjester

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Re: Multiplayer blocking
« Reply #22 on: January 14, 2009, 04:55:30 pm »
Sounds like this is one for the WFTDA Rules Clarifications.

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Offline DayGlo Divine

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Re: Multiplayer blocking
« Reply #23 on: January 14, 2009, 05:42:12 pm »
I interpret a MPB as a block where the players wouldn't naturally separate if hit by an opposing skater.

I agree with this. But it brings the question of two blockers shoulder to shoulder and hip to hip. If blockers are creating a wall in this manner, the jammer would be unable to legally block them in a manner that would seperate the two blockers.
Now, whether this is prohibited by the rules is not especially clear. It's certainly not grabbing, holding or linking. But is it joining, or creating an illegal wall? I'm not so sure.
I hate nitpicking over wording.

Under the "No impact/No penalty" section for MPB:

6.2.7.5 Touching, but not grabbing and/or holding, a teammate while blocking.

So presumably, the situation you described would be legal.

But yeah, the word "join" is a tricky nit to pick for those who struggle with Law 18.
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Offline Matt the Knife

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Re: Multiplayer blocking
« Reply #24 on: January 17, 2009, 03:57:42 am »
During the summer there was a UK bootcamp, Glasvegas, featuring a couple of American league skaters. A few of my league's skaters (inc. the captain) came back from this weekend telling us how they had been taught to form an X cross across each other's hips, palm facing forwards, as this was "not holding or joining, hence not an MPB." I thought it was a bit suspect, however if the guest skaters/coaches for the bootcamp had said it, it must have some weight, along with the ambiguous wording of the rules as shown by this topic!

At the time I thought it was just me over-interpreting the rules in favour of dishing out MPB penalties, in an over-zealous way, now I realise other people are questioning the wording I start to worry that I have been letting them practice blocking illegally!
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Offline Brother Grim

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Re: Multiplayer blocking
« Reply #25 on: January 18, 2009, 05:44:26 am »
Brother Grim

Offline Darkjester

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Re: Multiplayer blocking
« Reply #26 on: January 18, 2009, 04:09:48 pm »
I've filled out a WFTDA Clarifications request on this question since there are many of us of different interpretations of 'joining'. Hopefully they will deem my question worthy and provide an answer. I know they are VERY busy and VERY few volunteers who answer them.
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Offline Crotch Rock-It

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Re: Multiplayer blocking
« Reply #27 on: January 18, 2009, 10:39:07 pm »
I've filled out a WFTDA Clarifications request on this question since there are many of us of different interpretations of 'joining'. Hopefully they will deem my question worthy and provide an answer. I know they are VERY busy and VERY few volunteers who answer them.


Thanks Darkjester!

Offline L8R SK8R

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Re: Multiplayer blocking
« Reply #28 on: January 18, 2009, 10:53:07 pm »
Am I wrong in my interpretations?

Makes perfect sense to me.

Offline Poobah

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Re: Multiplayer blocking
« Reply #29 on: January 23, 2009, 08:10:59 pm »
Yeah.. the more I think about it.. the more my answer doesn't sound right... so please, correct me!

I want to preface (after the fact...) my answer by saying that somebody I respect, but I can't remember who, told me that simply crossing arms to form an X (not necessarily linked- do you all get the distinction?) was considered a MP block if another skater was trying to get through. That may not be right now that I think about it, but that's what I based that response on.

Them rules ain't clear to me.

It's my understanding that you go with the body part penalties first, then resort to others if it's necessary.

Couldn't you call both of them for a major forearms if they successfully impede her progress with the crossed arms, and minors if they don't?
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