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Author Topic: "destroying the pack" clarification  (Read 7673 times)

Offline Alonzo Barricades

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"destroying the pack" clarification
« on: January 11, 2013, 11:03:11 am »
Hi !

This time I need help to understand this clarification :
[rule]Q: If the pack is moving clockwise and one team comes to a stop are they subject to destruction penalties?

A: The rules establish a Direction of Gameplay, and the basic idea that both teams work together to establish the pack speed. If the pack is moving clockwise, a team that slows or stops should not be penalized if the pack is subsequently destroyed, so long as it is not sudden, as it is an example of “normal gameplay.” However, if the team destroys the pack by skating away from the pack counterclockwise, this change is sudden and should be penalized if it results in a pack destruction.

If the pack is stopped, and one team begins skating slowly away counterclockwise no penalty for destruction should be given, again because this is normal gameplay. However, if the team sprints forward suddenly they should be penalized if it results in a pack destruction.[/rule]

My problem is with this sentence :
"If the pack is moving clockwise, a team that slows or stops should not be penalized if the pack is subsequently destroyed, so long as it is not sudden, as it is an example of “normal gameplay.”
How does the "so long as it is not sudden, as it is an example of “normal gameplay." have to be readen ? Does it mean that coming to a stop in such situation must never be considered suden (because it's normal gameplay compared with moving clockwise) and so never penalised ?
Or does it mean that coming to a stop is never penalised UNLESS it's suden ?

Maybe you'll find my question a bit strange but it's more or less a matter of translation and understanding rather than discussing the rules.

Thanks
« Last Edit: January 11, 2013, 11:04:51 am by Alonzo Barricades »

Offline Invader Jim

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Re: "destroying the pack" clarification
« Reply #1 on: January 11, 2013, 01:59:03 pm »
[rule]6.10.2.1.1 - The rules do not define pack speed. Illegally destroying the pack penalties shall not be given for gradually deviating from the speed of the pack as established through game play, unless said deviation is sudden, rapid, and marked, leaving the opposing team no opportunity to adjust and maintain a pack.[/rule]

Coming to a stop should not be penalized if unless it is sudden, rapid, and marked, leaving the opposing team no opportunity to adjust and maintain a pack.

Offline Alonzo Barricades

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Re: "destroying the pack" clarification
« Reply #2 on: January 11, 2013, 02:43:06 pm »
Yes, that what I understant by the rules.
But the clarification begin by stating that "The rules establish a Direction of Gameplay". So it make me think that (maybe) it change something if the pack is moving clockwise.

Offline Charles Martèle

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Re: "destroying the pack" clarification
« Reply #3 on: January 11, 2013, 02:56:36 pm »
Actually, what is basically said in this clarification is that the "destroying the pack" penalty must be issued only for a "sudden, rapid [...]" destruction, whatever the skaters' direction (clockwise or counterclockwise) and whatever the pack direction (clockwise or counterclockwise).

"The rules establish a Direction of Gameplay" must be understood, in my opinion as "Ok, the rules establish a Direction of Gameplay, but [...]".  ;)

Offline PackMan

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Re: "destroying the pack" clarification
« Reply #4 on: January 11, 2013, 03:02:36 pm »
Yes, that what I understant by the rules.
But the clarification begin by stating that "The rules establish a Direction of Gameplay". So it make me think that (maybe) it change something if the pack is moving clockwise.
The rules do indeed establish that Counter-clockwise is the direction of gameplay.  The rules even give us a category of penalties (Direction of Gameplay penalties) based on this notion that rollerderby is played in a counter-clockwise direction.  That clarification spells out a difference between ceasing to move clockwise (that would be part of normal gameplay), and ceasing to move counter-clockwise (that would be potentially destructive.)

Offline Bill Hind

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Re: "destroying the pack" clarification
« Reply #5 on: January 11, 2013, 04:03:55 pm »
... That clarification spells out a difference between ceasing to move clockwise (that would be part of normal gameplay), and ceasing to move counter-clockwise (that would be potentially destructive.)

I don't believe the distinction is that simple. My reading of the publication is the same as Jim and Charles's. The important phrase to focus on in the pack-speed-is-clockwise scenerio is "so long as it is not sudden". If skaters cease moving clockwise suddenly they are still subject to destroying the pack penalties.

This publication just clarifies that no matter which direction or speed the pack is moving, if skaters suddenly, markedly, etc stop or make a move that results in no pack they are subject to destruction calls. Same applies to stopped packs, too.
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Offline SeerSin

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Re: "destroying the pack" clarification
« Reply #6 on: January 11, 2013, 05:06:24 pm »
The clarification did introduce a change to the way we were calling destruction.

Pre-Clarification:

Stopped Pack -> One team skates away slowly = Destruction
Clockwise Moving Pack -> One team stops or slows = Destruction

Post-Clarification

Stopped Pack -> One team skates away slowly = No Penalty
Clockwise Moving Pack -> One team stops or slows = No Penalty

Strategy-wise this change allowed one team to reverse the pack direction from clockwise to counter-clockwise or from stopped to moving counter-clockwise without getting a major penalty.

What is still a penalty post-clarification:

Stopped Pack -> One team takes off = Destruction
Clockwise Moving Pack -> One team actively skates in the clockwise counter-clockwise direction = Destruction
« Last Edit: January 11, 2013, 05:11:14 pm by SeerSin »

Offline Invader Jim

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Re: "destroying the pack" clarification
« Reply #7 on: January 11, 2013, 06:43:35 pm »
Post-Clarification

Clockwise Moving Pack -> One team stops or slows = No Penalty


Sorry if this is pedantic but assuming so long as it is not sudden. Right?  That is how I read the clarification. An abrupt halt of one team while the pack is moving clockwise could result in a DTP penalty.

Offline SeerSin

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Re: "destroying the pack" clarification
« Reply #8 on: January 11, 2013, 09:55:33 pm »
Post-Clarification

Clockwise Moving Pack -> One team stops or slows = No Penalty


Sorry if this is pedantic but assuming so long as it is not sudden. Right?  That is how I read the clarification. An abrupt halt of one team while the pack is moving clockwise could result in a DTP penalty.

No, the point is to not penalize that destruction because it allows the game to move in the derby direction.

Offline Darkjester

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Re: "destroying the pack" clarification
« Reply #9 on: January 12, 2013, 06:15:28 pm »
What Seer said, followed by:
After you announce "No Pack" all parties are responsible for recreating the pack and subject to Failure to Reform penalties.

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Offline Dropkick Referee

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Re: "destroying the pack" clarification
« Reply #10 on: January 15, 2013, 03:34:46 pm »
Just the thing I was going to ask about. Thank you for this clarification of the clarification!  ;)
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Offline Bratty Cardia

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Re: "destroying the pack" clarification
« Reply #11 on: January 18, 2013, 05:43:05 pm »
No, the point is to not penalize that destruction because it allows the game to move in the derby direction.

I trust you, Seer, because you've done this for so much longer than I have, but why, then, does the clarification read as follows?

[rule]If the pack is moving clockwise, a team that slows or stops should not be penalized if the pack is subsequently destroyed, so long as it is not sudden, as it is an example of “normal gameplay.”[/rule]

Flat track roller derby has evolved to the point where it does not consist simply of a bunch of people turning left and hitting each other occasionally while skating as quickly as they can. This clarification is meant to address the current state of the game, where the pack can be moving clockwise, which I imagine would bewilder time travellers from the early days of roller derby .

Is the reference to "so long as it is not sudden" meant to imply that in a clockwise-moving pack, the only pack destruction that can be considered "sudden" is for one team to skate away counterclockwise (barring taking a knee, skating out of bounds, etc.)? If not, I'm having difficulty reconciling the wording of the clarification and your interpretation thereof.

Help?
Bratty Cardia
2.2.2 — The team with the most points at the end of the game wins.

Offline Major Wood

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Re: "destroying the pack" clarification
« Reply #12 on: January 18, 2013, 05:47:02 pm »
It means that as long as the don't stop or slow suddenly, it is an example of normal gameplay.

He was pointing out the reason for the publication to be the way it is.
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Offline Charles Martèle

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Re: "destroying the pack" clarification
« Reply #13 on: January 18, 2013, 06:27:18 pm »
Quote
Pre-Clarification:

Stopped Pack -> One team skates away slowly = Destruction (1)
Clockwise Moving Pack -> One team stops or slows = Destruction (2)

Post-Clarification

Stopped Pack -> One team skates away slowly = No Penalty (3)
Clockwise Moving Pack -> One team stops or slows = No Penalty (4)

Woww ! I'm quite surprised by this !
I don't understand why, in cases (1) and (2), a slow skating away or a slow stopping would be sanctionned by a penalty. I think such actions clearly fall under 6.10.2.1.1, whether or not the clarification exists, and should not be sanctionned.

[rule]6.10.2.1.1 - The rules do not define pack speed. Illegally destroying the pack penalties shall not be given for gradually deviating from the speed of the pack as established through game play, unless said deviation is sudden, rapid, and marked, leaving the opposing team no opportunity to adjust and maintain a pack.[/rule]

As for (4), I think that, again, No Penalty should be issued unless the stop is sudden, etc.

Quote
I trust you, Seer, because you've done this for so much longer than I have, but why, then, does the clarification read as follows?
This is exactly the same for me : I just would like to know what I have missed !  ;)


Edit: changed the last quote to a quote box from a code box. The code box was making the page scroll horizontally. -Major Wood
« Last Edit: January 18, 2013, 06:35:44 pm by Major Wood »

Offline Invader Jim

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Re: "destroying the pack" clarification
« Reply #14 on: January 18, 2013, 06:41:13 pm »
It means that as long as the don't stop or slow suddenly, it is an example of normal gameplay.

He was pointing out the reason for the publication to be the way it is.

But that is not what he said. I specifically said, if it is sudden, it could result in a DTP penalty, yes?  He said no. 

 

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