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Author Topic: Communication of Penalty Time Remaining  (Read 3964 times)

Offline ttjustice

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Communication of Penalty Time Remaining
« on: February 13, 2013, 06:51:56 pm »
I have a couple of general question about penalty timers communicating time remaining on a skaters penalty.

1)  Between jams is it good etiquette to tell each player you are timing how much time they have remaining even if they don't ask for it?  (I have been).

2)  Last week i had an opposing player ask me how much time was remaining on an opposing jammer's penalty.  I had not been asked that before so I was curious to know how others handle that.

3)  During the active timing of a players penalty, if that player turns around and stares at you, do you not give them remaining time untill they ask or is the non-verbal communication enough?

thoughts and thanks!
Timothy T. Justice
Ohio Roller Girls Head of Officiating 2011-2013
Retired Level 3 Skating Official
WFTDA Rules Theory Clerk

Offline SilkenTofu

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Re: Communication of Penalty Time Remaining
« Reply #1 on: February 13, 2013, 07:31:48 pm »
2)  Last week i had an opposing player ask me how much time was remaining on an opposing jammer's penalty.  I had not been asked that before so I was curious to know how others handle that.

I have the exact same question, which was brought to me by a team.  I don't really care what the answer is, I just want consistency, so a team doesn't get responses in one bout and then the next weekend get angry with the NSOs because they won't answer.
Bloomington, IN
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WFTDA Clinic Instructor, WFTDA Officials Committee member
MRDA Certification Committee

Offline Darkjester

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Re: Communication of Penalty Time Remaining
« Reply #2 on: February 13, 2013, 07:40:30 pm »
1) I don't. It could be considered coaching as you are giving information without it being requested. While often coaching is 'telling a skater what to do with that information" supplying information without request can also have an impact. For instance Skater is on 5 Majors and forgets.. Informing her "You have 5 majors" without her asking, now has put it into her mind to change her play.   If she asks, then you are just fulfilling an information request.

2) I'm on the fence on this, however I see no problem with giving it if requested.


3)From the Standard Practices Document" In addition to telling skaters to stand at 10 seconds, and telling skaters they are done at 0 seconds (using the proper
verbal cues), Penalty Box Officials should update a skater
when they ask how much penalty time is remaining, within
reason. "

Taking that into consideration is where I come up with my answer to 1 & 3, which is a skater MUST request the information.
Madness Tolls
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Offline Darkjester

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Re: Communication of Penalty Time Remaining
« Reply #3 on: February 13, 2013, 07:42:36 pm »
I have the exact same question, which was brought to me by a team.  I don't really care what the answer is, I just want consistency, so a team doesn't get responses in one bout and then the next weekend get angry with the NSOs because they won't answer.

I would recommend using the WFTDA useform to ask them directly. At ZH will find that you get a great amount of experience and opinions on how we see things, but unless its specified in the rules or a Rules Publication, its just going to be our collective opinions which may or may not be shared by the individual leagues you go to visit, or even necessarily amongst us here.
Madness Tolls
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Offline ShoNuff

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Re: Communication of Penalty Time Remaining
« Reply #4 on: February 13, 2013, 08:14:33 pm »
I've had number 2 occur and the results of that discussion led to my answer to number 1 changing.

I've had both players and bench staff ask how much time an opponent had remaining and the team it was being asked about definately did not feel that that was something they should be being told.  As a result of the post-bout discussions on the topic, I no longer inform a skater of their time remaining unless they ask.

I've seen some teams that are very active in monitoring opponent penalty time to the point of having one of their bench staff timing opponent penalties so that they will know how long each opposing skater has left in the box.  I've also seen teams that really don't care.

I suspect the answer to this one is to put it on your list of pre-bout questions.  I would expect that some leagues will care about this a lot and others really won't.

The big thing is to remember that informing anyone of time remaining is always hooked to a within reason standard and informing someone other than the skater being timed is going to be a very low priority task for the timer.


For the third point, I do accept non-verbal requests for time so when a skater I'm timing looks back and is clearly asking for her time remaining, I tell her.

Offline FNZebra

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Re: Communication of Penalty Time Remaining
« Reply #5 on: February 13, 2013, 09:54:53 pm »
The only reason this data isn't publicly visible in most venues is the constraints on PB location, available timing devices and their displays, and sometimes on personnel.

This shouldn't be sekrit data, and a skater sitting in the box shouldn't be "required" to ask for her remaining time -- if the PBTimer isn't otherwise occupied by their official duties, why not inform the skater? I accept their presence in the box as an implicit request for remaining time to be served.

It's (or it should be) public and obvious when a skater enters the PB, has 10 seconds remaining, and is released. Why should the running time not be made available if it NEVER interferes with the other PB duties, and if we had the money & technology?
You will bout as you practice.


Cheers,

FN Zebra
Bleeding Heartland Roller Derby (WFTDA)
Bloomington, Indianer

Offline The Gorram Reaver

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Re: Communication of Penalty Time Remaining
« Reply #6 on: February 13, 2013, 09:58:52 pm »
For the third point, I do accept non-verbal requests for time so when a skater I'm timing looks back and is clearly asking for her time remaining, I tell her.

A skater who merely "looks at you" is not by any metric of which I'm aware "clearly asking for her time remaining".  For all you know she could be deciding whether or not to ask for your phone number after the bout because she thinks you're hot.  The leap from "that skater is looking at me" to "that skater intends to ask me how much time she has remaining" is one based on nothing other than assumption.  There are enough problems generated in derby officiating by assuming things without providing clear communication that I'm not about to perpetuate that problem by making assumptions about what a skater turning around and looking at me is supposed to mean in any given circumstance.

TLDR:  I require a verbal request (or a signed request) before telling a skater how much time she has remaining.
The Gorram Reaver
Mad Rollin' Dolls, Madison, WI

Offline DocSkinner

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Re: Communication of Penalty Time Remaining
« Reply #7 on: February 13, 2013, 11:36:37 pm »
The only reason this data isn't publicly visible in most venues is the constraints on PB location, available timing devices and their displays, and sometimes on personnel.

This shouldn't be sekrit data, and a skater sitting in the box shouldn't be "required" to ask for her remaining time -- if the PBTimer isn't otherwise occupied by their official duties, why not inform the skater? I accept their presence in the box as an implicit request for remaining time to be served.

It's (or it should be) public and obvious when a skater enters the PB, has 10 seconds remaining, and is released. Why should the running time not be made available if it NEVER interferes with the other PB duties, and if we had the money & technology?

[rule]2.8.4.3
Penalty clocks are not required to be visible to referees, teams, and fans. While in the Penalty Box, skaters may request knowledge of how much penalty time they have remaining.[/rule]

I read that as penalty times are not public knowledge. It also states that skaters may request knowledge of their own times.

I see nothing stating that coaches or other players have any right to know the times of any other skater. They get 10 seconds warning. It's one reason that 7.2.3.1 includes the statement "The skater must stand upright."  No one has a right to know the other team's penalty times. if they want to know, they can look at the clock when the jammer sits and mentally keep track.

That being said, I don't worry about letting an opposing skater overhear when I state the remaining time. On many occasions I have had a jammer ask her remaining time only to have an opposing blocker hear my response and call out to her team "jammer in 15 seconds!"
« Last Edit: February 13, 2013, 11:42:04 pm by DocSkinner »

Offline ShoNuff

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Re: Communication of Penalty Time Remaining
« Reply #8 on: February 14, 2013, 12:33:49 am »
For the third point, I do accept non-verbal requests for time so when a skater I'm timing looks back and is clearly asking for her time remaining, I tell her.

A skater who merely "looks at you" is not by any metric of which I'm aware "clearly asking for her time remaining".  For all you know she could be deciding whether or not to ask for your phone number after the bout because she thinks you're hot.  The leap from "that skater is looking at me" to "that skater intends to ask me how much time she has remaining" is one based on nothing other than assumption.  There are enough problems generated in derby officiating by assuming things without providing clear communication that I'm not about to perpetuate that problem by making assumptions about what a skater turning around and looking at me is supposed to mean in any given circumstance.

TLDR:  I require a verbal request (or a signed request) before telling a skater how much time she has remaining.

I've yet to have a skater who appeared to be nonverbally requesting her time remaining turn out to have meant anything other than, I want to know my time remaining.

I can understand your unwillingness to answer without a verbal request, but context based emoting is used extensively to communicate things in a bout and I don't see why this should be different.

Offline Darkjester

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Re: Communication of Penalty Time Remaining
« Reply #9 on: February 14, 2013, 02:03:22 am »
If a skater taps her wrist guard where a watch would be? To me that is a non-verbal request for her time that I would respond to with her time.

If a skater looks at me, she could just telling me how dang sexy I am in my (black) or Pink NSO shirt...

Or she could be waiting for me to say "Green 42 Stand.."

In the latter I would not offer up her time unless its requested. Its pretty clear that the rule book says "When requested."  I'd hate to see a NSO get a poor Eval by a visiting Captain/Rep, because they didn't offer up the Time in between every jam, or whenever the skater looked at them, because "thats how other leagues have done it."
Madness Tolls
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Beach Brawl Sk8R Dolls
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Offline ttjustice

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Re: Communication of Penalty Time Remaining
« Reply #10 on: February 15, 2013, 11:59:45 am »
Thanks for the answers folks, I appreciate it.  I'll definitely bring these up to the head NSO when I work away bouts and see how they want things like that done.
Timothy T. Justice
Ohio Roller Girls Head of Officiating 2011-2013
Retired Level 3 Skating Official
WFTDA Rules Theory Clerk

 

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