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Author Topic: Penalty accumulation while in the queue  (Read 9350 times)

Offline The Gorram Reaver

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Re: Penalty accumulation while in the queue
« Reply #15 on: February 14, 2013, 12:16:42 am »
While I cannot argue against this (I like it), I do wonder if this is based on a rule or clarification, or if it comes from the fact that there is no rule describing the creation of a queue.

It's no more based on a specific rule or clarification than the justification you provide for requiring strict order of penalty service is based in a specific rule.  In other words, both approaches (strict order of penalty service, and first-come first-served order of penalty service) are synthesized from rules that govern other aspects of penalty service.

A skater who earns a major penalty must be directed off the track and report to the penalty box, regardless of whether or not there is a seat available at the time the penalty is assessed, and regardless of whether or not she has recently reported to the box for another penalty and been waved off. 
[rule]7.1.1 - When a skater has earned a major penalty, that skater will be sent to the penalty box. The skater’s team must play short, without the skater and the position the skater was playing, until the penalty has expired (see Section 7.2.2).[/rule]
[rule]7.2.2 - Penalty Box Procedures, Rights, and Restrictions

When a skater is sent to the penalty box, the skater must immediately exit the track and skate to the penalty box in the counter-clockwise direction.[/rule]


The only exception to this is if the skater is the only blocker currently On The Track (as in, not considered Not On The Track) for her team.
[rule]7.2.2.2.3 - In order to form a pack, a team must have at least one Blocker on the track at all times. If there is only one Blocker from a given team, that skater will not be sent to the penalty box, even if the penalty box cap has not been reached, until another Blocker returns to the track and has joined the pack.[/rule]

When a Blocker reports to the penalty box, she is waved off if there is no available seat for her, unless there are less than 10 seconds remaining for any Blockers who are in the box.
[rule]7.2.2.3 - If there are already two Blockers in the box from the penalized Blocker’s team, the third Blocker will be waved off by the penalty timer. If there are less than 10 seconds left on penalties currently being served, the penalty timer will hold the third Blocker in the box and start timing the penalty. If the skater is waved off, the skater must return to the track as described in Section 7.2.7. A Jammer can never be waved off from the penalty box.[/rule]

If we can't wave off a Blocker who arrives while another Blocker has less than 10 seconds to serve is still in the penalty box, then we have no reason to insist on skaters reporting to the box in a specific order.

Moreover, if we're going to insist that all Blockers serve their penalties in the order in which they're assessed by the referees....

Black 7 gets a penalty, reports to the box, and is seated.
Black 38 gets a penalty, incurs a second penalty for Insubordination while she reports to the box, and is seated (two minutes to serve).
Black 92 gets a penalty, reports to the box, and is waved off.
Black 432 gets a penalty, reports to the box, and is waved off.
Black 92 gets a penalty, reports to the box, and is waved off.
Black 7 stands.
Black 92 is directed back to the box.

So....  When Black 92 gets to the box, do you have her sit for two minutes, or do you have her serve one minute, then release her and get Black 432 to the box to serve her minute, then bring Black 92 back once Black 38 is done with her two minutes.  After all, that's the order in which the penalties were assessed and skaters reported to the box....

If we're going to insist skaters serve their penalties in the exact order they were issued, we should be insisting that skaters serve their penalties in the exact order they were issued.
The Gorram Reaver
Mad Rollin' Dolls, Madison, WI

Offline ShoNuff

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Re: Penalty accumulation while in the queue
« Reply #16 on: February 14, 2013, 12:26:44 am »
I would say it is exactly based on a specific rule.  7.2.2.3 only allow you to wave off a blocker if there are two seated blockers in the box when they arrive.

That prevents a literal queue since you can't wave a skater off because there is another blocker not seated in the box who owes time. 

Offline DocSkinner

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Re: Penalty accumulation while in the queue
« Reply #17 on: February 14, 2013, 02:11:18 am »
I agree that it is not clear. I was just curious if there was a rule or a clarification that I was missing, as Sho and Dante seemed so sure.

In my interpretation there is at least as much evidence supporting a literal queue as there is supporting the "first available" option. However without the formal creation of a queue per the ruleset, I will go with the easier option of no set order.

Offline ShoNuff

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Re: Penalty accumulation while in the queue
« Reply #18 on: February 14, 2013, 04:16:33 am »
I owuld put it this way then.

Without violating 7.2.2.3, how do you impose a literal queue?

Blocker reports to the box.  There is only one seated blocker.  If you wave that skater off, you ignore 7.2.2.3.

If you seat that blocker, there is no rule that is not enforced.
The waved off blocker will still serve her penalty after the blockers already seated when she is waved off, thus 7.2.2.2 is followed and no skater is waved off unless there are two blockers seated when they arrive at the box, 7.2.2.3 is followed.

Literal queue requires you to set aside rules.  No literal queue does not.


Offline DocSkinner

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Re: Penalty accumulation while in the queue
« Reply #19 on: February 14, 2013, 05:15:18 am »
Rule 7.2.2.2 also says that the third Blocker will serve her penalty once the penalty box is available. I'd want to know the definition of "third Blocker" in that rule. As a blocker has previously reported to the box (hence there being a queue in the first place), that skater is the "third Blocker".

But I'm not arguing. I agree with you. I just am not as sure as you are that the interpretation is correct.

Offline ShoNuff

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Re: Penalty accumulation while in the queue
« Reply #20 on: February 14, 2013, 01:59:03 pm »
The third blocker is any blocker who arrives at the box when there are two seated blockers.

There can be two third blockers at the same time.  A third blocker is any blocker who arrives at the box and satisifes the conditions of 7.2.2.3 since 7.2.2.2 sends you to 7.2.2.3 to determine if a blocker meets the criteria for being waved off.

To me the key issue is that 7.2.2.2 sends you to 7.2.2.3 to determine if a waveoff should be performed.  7.2.2.3 then defines a very specific criterion and says that you wave someone off if there are two blockers in the box.  7.2.2.3 never sends you back to 7.2.2.2 it fully defines the decision making process.

A blocker on the track is not relevent for the decision to wave off a skater.  If the criterion had been there already being two penalized blockers, then I would see that as supporting a literal queue since the waved off blocker is a penalized blocker.  But you are only allowed to consider a blocker who is seated right now and a blocker out on the track is not seated in the box.

Offline Darkjester

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Re: Penalty accumulation while in the queue
« Reply #21 on: February 14, 2013, 06:14:34 pm »
First Come First Served :-)
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Offline molotovmuffin

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Re: Penalty accumulation while in the queue
« Reply #22 on: February 16, 2013, 04:04:41 pm »
One thing to note is that you don't have to care who was sent first or second.

The queue is not literal.  When a seat opens, any skater owing penalty time can report.  There is no requirement for the first skater penalized to report first.

So while you do need to keep track of who owes time, you don't have to keep track of the order the penalties were issued.
This is true but if you don't keep track of who is sent when, you could literally end up with a skater staying on track for 3 jams or more while trying to get her time the box.  It does need to be paid attention to otherwise someone isn't going to serve their time in a timely manner.

Offline The Gorram Reaver

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Re: Penalty accumulation while in the queue
« Reply #23 on: February 16, 2013, 06:33:11 pm »
This is true but if you don't keep track of who is sent when, you could literally end up with a skater staying on track for 3 jams or more while trying to get her time the box.  It does need to be paid attention to otherwise someone isn't going to serve their time in a timely manner.

How long a skater has to wait to serve her penalty time is not our concern.  Ensuring that she stays on the track until her time is served, and that she eventually reports to the box to serve that penalty, is.  If a skater and/or her team are concerned about how long she has to be on track before that penalty is served they are welcome to utilize tactics that are permissible within the rules (skating past Point of No Return Line, skating very slowly on the way to the box, standing in the penalty box area and not sitting so the seat does not become occupied, etc.) to ensure that the skater who has been on the track waiting to serve the longest is the fist one to sit in a seat.

TLDR: This is not an officiating concern, this is a team/strategy concern.
The Gorram Reaver
Mad Rollin' Dolls, Madison, WI

 

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