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Poll

Who is the Official time keeper anyhow?

Jam timer
9 (42.9%)
scoreboard
12 (57.1%)

Total Members Voted: 21

Author Topic: Who is the Official Timer  (Read 4844 times)

Offline St. Charlie Brown

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Who is the Official Timer
« on: July 15, 2013, 05:20:49 am »
I believe that the official Jam time and period clock should be the Jam Timer and not the scoreboard.  My reasons for thinking this way Are: that the Jam timer is more in tune to the beginning and ending of the jams and timeouts.  The scoreboard operator is recording the time second hand, and can make mistakes (i.e. not being focused when listening for the whistles, accidentally hitting a button, etc).  Many times over, I have seen problems with the scoreboard software where the time will just stop for no reason or automatically stop the time if the Jam timer doesn't start the jam when the scoreboard says it should.  Since there is an extra human error element to this, I believe the Jam Timer should be the Official timer, but keep an eye on the clock to keep it up to date.

Offline Riff Reff

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Re: Who is the Official Timer
« Reply #1 on: July 15, 2013, 12:09:05 pm »
I understand what you are saying and you are somewhat right BUT, the Jam Timer cannot hold the OFFICIAL clocks since they are not visible.

The OFFICIAL clocks are the ones visible to the officials/skaters/audience (the scoreboard).

[rule]2.8.2.4 - The official period clock must be highly visible to referees, teams, and fans.

2.8.3.3 - The official jam clock must be highly visible to referees, teams, and fans.[/rule]

The clocks (watches) the jam timer holds are usually more exact and it is the Jam Timer's job to ensure that the official clocks are correct by syncing the (official) scoreboard clocks to his.

Here is where it really becomes important: If a jam ends and the (official) scoreboard shows 31 seconds and the Jam Timer's watch shows 29. You need to go by the scoreboard. The teams cannot see that there are less than 30 seconds remaining.

Same thing if the period clock has expired and the last jam is running the full 2 mins. The Jam Timer should call the jam when the visible jam clock expires.
« Last Edit: July 15, 2013, 12:11:53 pm by Riff Reff »
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Offline Nick Bergus

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Re: Who is the Official Timer
« Reply #2 on: July 15, 2013, 12:11:32 pm »
The problem with making the jam timer's stop watch the official clock are the rules:

 [rule]2.8.2.4 - The official period clock must be highly visible to referees, teams, and fans.[/rule]

[rule]2.8.3.3 - The official jam clock must be highly visible to referees, teams, and fans.[/rule]

Obviously a handheld stopwatch isn't highly visible to anyone except its holder. That doesn't mean the scoreboard clock can't be corrected based on information from the jam timer and other officials (adding time back when the clock isn't immediately stopped at a timeout, for example), and I'm happy to adjust the official clock based on the jam timer's backup watch. But I want five-second line up warnings and jam starts and full two-minute jams called by the clock everyone can see, and the rules do, too.
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Offline SilkenTofu

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Re: Who is the Official Timer
« Reply #3 on: July 15, 2013, 12:38:38 pm »
But I want five-second line up warnings and jam starts and full two-minute jams called by the clock everyone can see, and the rules do, too.

Technically a visible lineup clock is not mandated by the rules.  I like having it, a lot of skaters like having it, refs like having it, jam timers like having it (it makes things simpler with the handheld stopwatch), and it is built into the computer-based scoreboard programs, but it's not a requirement.  For example, venues where the hockey scoreboard is in use typically use the hockey scoreboard for the period clock and a separate jam clock (I've seen a few options, most recently a computer countdown app connected to a large-screen TV), and no lineup clock other than the jam timer's stopwatch.

Per the WFTDA Standardized Practices (http://wftda.com/rules/wftda-officiating-standardized-practices.pdf):
Quote
The Jam Timer should correct the visible game clock
as needed during the timeout.
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Offline Insane Troll Logic

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Re: Who is the Official Timer
« Reply #4 on: July 25, 2013, 03:25:14 am »
Contrary-wise, as JT I often work with Scoreboard Operators who are newer to the position, focused on not just stopping the jam but also updating the score, and/or further away from the action than I am. So, I often don't follow the scoreboard when timing the 30 second lineups.

However, in every playoff and championship tournament that I've worked so far I've been instructed to use the scoreboard to time lineups. Easy come, easy go.
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Offline Major Wood

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Re: Who is the Official Timer
« Reply #5 on: July 25, 2013, 03:39:46 am »
Contrary-wise, as JT I often work with Scoreboard Operators who are newer to the position, focused on not just stopping the jam but also updating the score, and/or further away from the action than I am. So, I often don't follow the scoreboard when timing the 30 second lineups.

However, in every playoff and championship tournament that I've worked so far I've been instructed to use the scoreboard to time lineups. Easy come, easy go.

I used to think that way. Until it had an effect on the game.
There was a game where one team called for a last second timeout. When they signaled the timeout, there were 2 seconds remaining on the period clock on the scoreboard. The jam timer had a stopwatch that showed the time to have expired. I denied the request for a timeout. I wouldn't do it again.
Sometimes seconds count for a team. It's one thing to have a clock that is not displayed that is the accurate clock, used to correct the official clock if necessary. It's another to take action on a clock that is not displayed. If you feel you need to go by the clock that isn't displayed, take the timeout and correct the official clock.
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Offline Numb3r Crunch3r

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Re: Who is the Official Timer
« Reply #6 on: July 25, 2013, 04:44:42 am »
Agreed. Skaters and teams, especially in close games, will often use the visible clock for strategy - wait for it to hit zero before calling it off if you're winning, call it off before it hits zero if you're losing and want another jam to have another shot. That team's entire strategy and chance to win the game is resting solely on that visible clock, whether it's accurate or not. Everybody in the audience who knows derby will be watching that clock to see whether a team executes those exact same strategies.

The jam timer's clock may be accurate, but the score-board clock is what everybody sees.

Offline SilkenTofu

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Re: Who is the Official Timer
« Reply #7 on: July 25, 2013, 12:36:41 pm »
Agreed. Skaters and teams, especially in close games, will often use the visible clock for strategy...

And this includes the lineup clock, as non-required as its visibility may be.  I've seen a lot of teams who do fancy things after the five-second warning and before the jam starts, and they're frequently looking at the scoreboard to plan ahead, rather than at the jam timer for the signal.  Unless it's pretty darn inaccurate, I go by the visible lineup clock as well (when there is one).
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Offline PackMan

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Re: Who is the Official Timer
« Reply #8 on: July 25, 2013, 03:15:26 pm »
My issue with using the visible lineup time is this:  Even if it's only 1 second behind the jam timer's watch, if it is frequently behind you are talking about using up 40 or more seconds of period time by the end of the bout.  That's wasted time that could have been saved (within the rules) by the jam timer sticking with his or her own watch for lineup time.

As far as teams prepping for last second strategic maneuvers, 30 seconds still takes 30 seconds, and the jam timer will give a verbal 5 second warning, so any team paying attention should not get caught by the difference between the visible lineup time and the accurate lineup time.

Offline Major Wood

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Re: Who is the Official Timer
« Reply #9 on: July 25, 2013, 03:21:52 pm »
Except when the previous jam ends with less than 30 seconds on the period clock. There wouldn't be a 5 second warning in that case. Also, what happens if the visible period clock is 1 second slow compared to the jam timer's clock? Coach hears and sees the 5 second warning, takes a moment to think, looks over at the scoreboard and notices they have 3 seconds left, but wants to wait until 1 second. When the visible clock shows 1 second remaining, the jam would have already started.
If the visible (official) clock becomes incorrect, take a timeout and correct it. You are not taking up time that should have been on the period clock.

Pure and simple, not going by the visible clock can create confusion for anyone who is not the jam timer.
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Offline DocSkinner

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Re: Who is the Official Timer
« Reply #10 on: July 25, 2013, 05:30:09 pm »
A couple of other things to think about (not advocating one way or another on this) is how the scoreboard software is set up to handle the lineup time going past 30 seconds. This is an issue especially for a traveling NSO who may be working with unfamiliar software.

I've seen scoreboards set up to automatically start the jam at 30 seconds. So if the scoreboard clock is ahead of the Jam Timer, the jam started on the scoreboard early and will end early.

I've seen scoreboards set to automatically go into an Official Timeout when the lineup hits 30 seconds and a jam has not started. This is especially bad because it stops the period clock. So if the scoreboard is consistently early (like the SBO stops the jam on the first whistle rather than the fourth), you end up with a second or two of OTO time every jam, which adds up to a period clock that has to be adjusted frequently.

I guess my point is, as a Jam Timer I react to all kinds of variables to determine if I go by the visible clock or my stopwatch.

Offline PackMan

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Re: Who is the Official Timer
« Reply #11 on: July 25, 2013, 05:42:23 pm »
Except when the previous jam ends with less than 30 seconds on the period clock. There wouldn't be a 5 second warning in that case. Also, what happens if the visible period clock is 1 second slow compared to the jam timer's clock? Coach hears and sees the 5 second warning, takes a moment to think, looks over at the scoreboard and notices they have 3 seconds left, but wants to wait until 1 second. When the visible clock shows 1 second remaining, the jam would have already started.
If the visible (official) clock becomes incorrect, take a timeout and correct it. You are not taking up time that should have been on the period clock.

Pure and simple, not going by the visible clock can create confusion for anyone who is not the jam timer.
I agree completely.  I was specifically referring to the lineup counter, not the period clock.  Once the period clock gets below 30 seconds it MUST be followed, especially since we cannot take an official timeout to correct it at that point.

Offline Megapickle

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Re: Who is the Official Timer
« Reply #12 on: July 26, 2013, 01:19:03 am »
I've seen scoreboards set to automatically go into an Official Timeout when the lineup hits 30 seconds and a jam has not started. This is especially bad because it stops the period clock. So if the scoreboard is consistently early (like the SBO stops the jam on the first whistle rather than the fourth), you end up with a second or two of OTO time every jam, which adds up to a period clock that has to be adjusted frequently.

Doc, early jam-ends by the SBO would be a new thing for me to witness, whereas JT starting the jam a few seconds late is fairly common. So as I see it, this policy is great, in that it follows this rule to the letter:

[rule]2.8.2.3 - Officials must stop the official period clock between jams when time exceeds 30 seconds.[/rule]

A side benefit is that Delay Of Game stoppages are also automatically handled precisely & correctly:

[rule]6.15 - [...] If a Delay of Game penalty is warranted, the officials should take a timeout at the end of the 30-second line-up time, instead of starting a new jam. [...][/rule]

All that said, I do understand your point -- just giving you some reasoning for why folks would've set up the scoreboard in a way you think is 'especially bad'.

Offline DocSkinner

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Re: Who is the Official Timer
« Reply #13 on: July 26, 2013, 06:04:55 pm »
I see your point, and I shouldn't have used the phrase "especially bad" -- of course there are reasons for having the SB set up that way. Just because it didn't work for the way my HR and I like to do things doesn't mean it doesn't work for everyone.

 

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