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Author Topic: False Start  (Read 11445 times)

Offline JoeXCore

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Re: False Start
« Reply #15 on: May 08, 2009, 04:57:24 am »
Spending some time with the rules under the microscope.

2.4.4.2   ...They are subject to false start penalties if they are not behind the Pivot line and in front of the Jammer line (see Section 6.12.4 for specific penalty details)...

6.12.4.2.2   is touching behind the Jammer line

With all of the specificity of ON or BEHIND the jammer line in the rules, here's a contradiction.
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Offline Major Wood

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Re: False Start
« Reply #16 on: May 08, 2009, 05:07:18 am »
I'm not sure I see the contradiction. What is being stated is that the front edge of the pivot line and the back edge of the jammer line are the actual boundaries of where pivots and non-pivot blockers may position themselves when a jam starts.
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Offline Treble Damage

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Re: False Start
« Reply #17 on: May 08, 2009, 06:09:56 am »
Speaking of false starting I just noticed a change in wording.

6.12.4.1   A Jammer false starts for being out of position at the Jammer starting whistle when she is touching beyond the Jammer line.

This means no longer does a jammer get a penalty for false starting if she starts on the pack whistle and then returns behind the jammer line before the jammer whistle.

Oof.  I'm sure someone will correct me if I am wrong, but although I see your point with the text, I do not think this change was intended.

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Offline noidd

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Re: False Start
« Reply #18 on: May 08, 2009, 01:53:55 pm »
Oof.  I'm sure someone will correct me if I am wrong, but although I see your point with the text, I do not think this change was intended.

What do you think the intent of the change in language was?

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Offline JoeXCore

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Re: False Start
« Reply #19 on: May 08, 2009, 02:46:04 pm »
I'm not sure I see the contradiction. What is being stated is that the front edge of the pivot line and the back edge of the jammer line are the actual boundaries of where pivots and non-pivot blockers may position themselves when a jam starts.

You say the back edge of the jammer line... as in the blocker may line up ON the jamme line... as long as she is not behind it?

That doesn't match up with 2.4.4.2 which says she is subject to penalties if she is not "in front of the jammer line"

But then 6.12.4.2.2 agrees with you saying she "false starts for being out of position at the pack starting whistle when she... is touching behind the Jammer line"

The rules now very specifically acknowledge 3 relationships with the starting lines.

In front of
Behind
On

You know... I gotta go through these things with a fine toothed comb to be prepared for when I deal with a coach that has done the same. (I deal with some of those)
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Offline JoeXCore

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Re: False Start
« Reply #20 on: May 08, 2009, 02:51:26 pm »
Speaking of false starting I just noticed a change in wording.

6.12.4.1   A Jammer false starts for being out of position at the Jammer starting whistle when she is touching beyond the Jammer line.

This means no longer does a jammer get a penalty for false starting if she starts on the pack whistle and then returns behind the jammer line before the jammer whistle.

Oof.  I'm sure someone will correct me if I am wrong, but although I see your point with the text, I do not think this change was intended.

-Treble Damage
Charm City

Intended or not if someone calls a penalty on someone that is completely behind the jammer line at the jammer start whistle... wouldn't they be wrong? It's pretty clear "when she is touching beyond the Jammer line."
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Offline Cliquework

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Re: False Start
« Reply #21 on: May 08, 2009, 03:29:14 pm »
It seems an awfully specific language choice to be unintended. Also makes sense. How can a Jammer false start if the Jammers haven't started.

Being ON (or off) the track at the first whistle being a different story altogether.


Edit: Upon looking back at the previous rule wording, it seems as if it (the previous rule) was (or could have been)  intended to be this "new" way, but left the door open for false starting anytime before the Jammer start whistle. Door now closed and clarified.

« Last Edit: May 08, 2009, 04:30:28 pm by Cliquework »
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Offline Stegoscorus

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Re: False Start
« Reply #22 on: May 08, 2009, 04:35:37 pm »
I can't speak at all to the intention of the wording, but it may help to remember that different members of WFTDA Rules Committee write different sections of the rules.  Occasionally this kind of thing happens, where minutiae don't match up.  Of course it's proofread by the member leagues, but we're not perfect either.  It's just part of the charm of being a grassroots organization.   ;)

Or maybe that's not what happened here at all, what the heck do I know?
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Offline Treble Damage

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Re: False Start
« Reply #23 on: May 08, 2009, 04:37:48 pm »
It seems an awfully specific language choice to be unintended. Also makes sense. How can a Jammer false start if the Jammers haven't started.

Well....  Isn't that exactly what a false start is?  A Jammer starting before the Jammers are supposed to start?

I think it's unintended because of this:

Quote
2.4.4.1 Jammers are considered in position and ready if they are in bounds when the first whistle of the jam (i.e., the whistle to start the pack rolling) is blown. Jammers are subject to false start penalties if they are not on or behind the Jammer line (see Section 6.12.4 for specific penalty details).  

My honest belief, and I mean no disrespect to anyone, is that the language of 6.12.4.1 was likely copied from the blocker false start language, and the designation of the whistle was changed maybe while someone wasn't reading as carefully as usual at that moment - either that or they said "Jammer starting whistle" when they meant "Jam starting whistle."  

Like I say, I may be wrong, and I welcome anyone more knowledgeable to disagree.  But I believe that the intent of the rules is that a false start minor will be issued to a Jammer who is in front of the jammer line at any time between the pack whistle and the jammer whistle.

But where that leaves us, I don't know.  Until told otherwise, the text of the rules is what it is.  Based on the text of the rules, I cannot say JoeXCore would be wrong to call it the way he suggests (although I think 2.4.4.1 also gives enough ammunition to call it the other way, pending further clarification).

-Treble Damage
Charm City

Offline Cliquework

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Re: False Start
« Reply #24 on: May 08, 2009, 05:03:15 pm »
I just meant before the Jammers even "have" started, not before they're supposed to, which yes is a false start. It's just that now the "before they're supposed to" is written as the Jammer whistle itself (in the penalty section of of course), not anytime between the two.

But yes, I get what you're saying and I certainly have no background knowledge of as to why it is this way or what was the original intent, or if it's merely an editing accident. I'm just making my interpretation on the side of the coin that is mentioned in the penalty section as opposed to 2.4.4.1, which does go on to say (see Section 6.12.4 for specific penalty details).
« Last Edit: May 08, 2009, 05:06:46 pm by Cliquework »
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Offline Professor Murder

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Re: False Start
« Reply #25 on: May 08, 2009, 05:10:09 pm »
I'm, like Wood, not seeing the problem or contradiction.  There are standards that measure false start differentially for blockers, pivot blockers, and jammers.

Different standards for different positions is different.  Not contradictory.
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Offline JoeXCore

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Re: False Start
« Reply #26 on: May 08, 2009, 06:48:31 pm »
I'm, like Wood, not seeing the problem or contradiction.  There are standards that measure false start differentially for blockers, pivot blockers, and jammers.

Different standards for different positions is different.  Not contradictory.

both 6.12.4.2.2 and 2.4.4.2 are referring to blockers.

2.4.4.2 says they are subject to penalties if they are not in front of the jammer line and 6.12.4.2.2 says when she is touching behind the jammer line.

2.4.4.2 implies they may not be ON the jammer line, since they must be in front of it
6.12.4.2.2 says they won't get a penalty unless they're behind it
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Offline Professor Murder

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Re: False Start
« Reply #27 on: May 08, 2009, 07:09:20 pm »
Based on the need to find implication to support the existence of a contradiction, along with the parenthetical clause in 2.4.4.2 clearly stating that the "specific penalty details" are located in 6.12.4, I disagree.
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Offline Jonathan Lee

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Re: False Start
« Reply #28 on: May 08, 2009, 07:36:42 pm »
Follow 6.12.4.1

In general, always go by what is listed under the "TYPES OF PENALTIES" section
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Offline Treble Damage

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Re: False Start
« Reply #29 on: May 08, 2009, 08:54:42 pm »
Could a moderator split this thread?  There's two distinct issues being discussed here, and I don't think that's clear.

Issue 1: Will a blocker be awarded a false start penalty if she is touching the jammer line, but is not behind it?

Issue 2: Will a jammer be awarded a false start minor if she is in front of the jammer line at the time the pack whistle blows (or if she crosses the jammer line before the jammer whistle blows), but then realizes her mistake and repositions herself such that she is behind the jammer line at the time the jammer whistle blows?

Thanks
Treble Damage
Charm City

 

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