intruder

Menu

ZH Classifieds
ZH Files
ZH Staff
WFTDA 12/1/2014 Rules
WFTDA 3/1/2014 Rules

Donate

Please Support Zebra Huddle!

Recent Posts

Re: Resources for new referees. by Destructor
November 29, 2019, 01:13:40 pm

Resources for new referees. by Destructor
November 26, 2019, 06:01:48 pm

Jammer Passing Inactive Jammers by hellvis
November 14, 2019, 03:37:30 am

Re: JAMMER HELMET COVER by Stray Taco
October 03, 2019, 12:54:03 pm

Clover Cup 2020 - March 20-22 - North Richland Hills, TX USA by SodOff
September 28, 2019, 10:09:13 am

JAMMER HELMET COVER by 3Beers
September 22, 2019, 12:35:26 pm

Re: "Pincer" blocks = multipayer? by Bluebeard
July 11, 2019, 06:30:49 pm

"Pincer" blocks = multipayer? by Rego_Derby
July 11, 2019, 01:08:36 am

Re: Jammer Scoring Theory by Major Wood
June 26, 2019, 09:59:33 pm

Jammer Scoring Theory by Rego_Derby
June 25, 2019, 04:30:03 am

Author Topic: False Start  (Read 12634 times)

Offline jillintent

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 11
  • Stats Sheet: 0
False Start
« on: May 06, 2009, 03:44:05 am »
If both jammers false start and do not yield, how are penalties issued?  at practice this evening one jammer false started and the second jammer followed in her lead. 
JILLINTENT
Roc City Roller Derby

Offline mick hawkins

  • Superhero Member
  • **********
  • Posts: 1926
  • Stats Sheet: 61
  • They're covers people. Helmet COVERS!
  • Referee Certification Level: Not Certified
  • NSO Certification Level: Not Certified
Re: False Start
« Reply #1 on: May 06, 2009, 03:59:56 am »
If both jammers false start and do not yield, how are penalties issued?  at practice this evening one jammer false started and the second jammer followed in her lead. 

6.12.10 A false start by a Jammer or Blocker who does not yield advantage.  = MAJOR

first jammer gets a major
then the other one does

then 7.4 is followed
Sun State Roller Girls (WFTDA Apprentice League)
Brisbane, Australia

Offline jillintent

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 11
  • Stats Sheet: 0
Re: False Start
« Reply #2 on: May 06, 2009, 04:02:48 am »
This is what I thought.  But, I was told that the "yielding advantage" didn't apply since they BOTH false started and that both of them should have had a minor.
JILLINTENT
Roc City Roller Derby

Offline mick hawkins

  • Superhero Member
  • **********
  • Posts: 1926
  • Stats Sheet: 61
  • They're covers people. Helmet COVERS!
  • Referee Certification Level: Not Certified
  • NSO Certification Level: Not Certified
Re: False Start
« Reply #3 on: May 06, 2009, 04:09:12 am »
yeah - ive heard that too
doesnt say that in the rules though

Sun State Roller Girls (WFTDA Apprentice League)
Brisbane, Australia

Offline jillintent

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 11
  • Stats Sheet: 0
Re: False Start
« Reply #4 on: May 06, 2009, 04:18:02 am »
So, you think both should get majors definately?
JILLINTENT
Roc City Roller Derby

Offline mick hawkins

  • Superhero Member
  • **********
  • Posts: 1926
  • Stats Sheet: 61
  • They're covers people. Helmet COVERS!
  • Referee Certification Level: Not Certified
  • NSO Certification Level: Not Certified
Re: False Start
« Reply #5 on: May 06, 2009, 04:20:18 am »
So, you think both should get majors definately?

that's what 6.12.10 says

no yielding = major

the rules clarification on this says...
Once the Jammer receives her false start minor penalty and is told to yield, she must stop all forward motion until the opposing Jammer takes the lead by passing her. The Jammer who false-starts may not position her body in a way so as to impede the opposing Jammers forward or lateral motion. Once the Jammer passes the false start Jammer, both Jammers resume normal play.
Sun State Roller Girls (WFTDA Apprentice League)
Brisbane, Australia

Offline jillintent

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 11
  • Stats Sheet: 0
Re: False Start
« Reply #6 on: May 06, 2009, 04:32:39 am »
Well, I will bring this back to my group and see if we can get on the same page. or at least my page. . .because I am also understanding that they should both have gotten majors.
Thanks for your help.
-jillintent
JILLINTENT
Roc City Roller Derby

Offline mick hawkins

  • Superhero Member
  • **********
  • Posts: 1926
  • Stats Sheet: 61
  • They're covers people. Helmet COVERS!
  • Referee Certification Level: Not Certified
  • NSO Certification Level: Not Certified
Re: False Start
« Reply #7 on: May 06, 2009, 04:35:44 am »
be sure to ask them what they think should happen if there's only one jammer on the track and she false starts

 ;)
Sun State Roller Girls (WFTDA Apprentice League)
Brisbane, Australia

Offline Rev. Riot

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 273
  • Stats Sheet: 32
  • Anything needed gettin' done.
  • League Affiliation: Gotham
  • Referee Certification Level: Level 5
  • NSO Certification Level: Not Certified
Re: False Start
« Reply #8 on: May 06, 2009, 06:17:44 am »
Further, the Jammers are gaining an advantage on the pack as well when they false start, because the pack is not ready for them to be coming through so early. So yes, they need to yield that advantage.
Matthew Mantsch - Reverend Riot
WFTDA Rules Theory Committee
Gotham Girls Roller Derby - NYC

Offline reflmao

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 381
  • Stats Sheet: 21
Re: False Start
« Reply #9 on: May 06, 2009, 01:46:32 pm »
Does your answer change if both jammers realized that they had false started and stopped dead on the track but past the jammer line.

I was at this practice I didn't see it as I was with the pack.  My understanding is that they both stopped, and then they started moving again at the jammer whistle and restarted together.

For me the question really comes down to what is yielding when both false start. Some of our refs interpreted this as yielding and some didn't.  Yielding isn't defined to this level in rules. 

If my understanding is correct then I'm on the two minors side of this argument. There was no cartoonish "after you", "no after you", "no after YOU". but they yielded as best they could.  By stopping and starting together they yielded any advantage they had on each other and most (maybe all, I didn't see it) of the advantage they gained on the pack.
RCRD, Rochester, NY

Offline Johnny Zebra

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 768
  • Stats Sheet: 40
Re: False Start
« Reply #10 on: May 06, 2009, 01:49:41 pm »
Does your answer change if both jammers realized that they had false started and stopped dead on the track but past the jammer line.

I was at this practice I didn't see it as I was with the pack.  My understanding is that they both stopped, and then they started moving again at the jammer whistle and restarted together.

For me the question really comes down to what is yielding when both false start. Some of our refs interpreted this as yielding and some didn't.  Yielding isn't defined to this level in rules. 

If my understanding is correct then I'm on the two minors side of this argument. There was no cartoonish "after you", "no after you", "no after YOU". but they yielded as best they could.  By stopping and starting together they yielded any advantage they had on each other and most (maybe all, I didn't see it) of the advantage they gained on the pack.

Minors. In this specific situation, I'd probably signal the jammers are good to start moving again.

~j.z.
===============
Johnny Zebra
WFTDA Certified Referee (Level 3)
WFTDA Rules Q&A Working Group
Gotham Girls Roller Derby
Zebra Huddle Moderator

Offline Darkjester

  • Has Too Much Damn Time Member
  • ********************
  • Posts: 3067
  • Stats Sheet: 39
  • "When in doubt, RTFM"
  • League Affiliation: Beach Brawl SK8R Dolls
  • Referee Certification Level: Not Certified
  • NSO Certification Level: Not Certified
Re: False Start
« Reply #11 on: May 06, 2009, 03:57:04 pm »
I think that would constitute "Yielding" as they both came to a complete stop, and then both started again at the whistle.   Minors..
Madness Tolls
69¢
Beach Brawl Sk8R Dolls
Fort Walton Beach FL

Offline mick hawkins

  • Superhero Member
  • **********
  • Posts: 1926
  • Stats Sheet: 61
  • They're covers people. Helmet COVERS!
  • Referee Certification Level: Not Certified
  • NSO Certification Level: Not Certified
Re: False Start
« Reply #12 on: May 06, 2009, 11:38:25 pm »
Does your answer change if both jammers realized that they had false started and stopped dead on the track but past the jammer line.

sure... that'd be yielding the advantage = minors
Sun State Roller Girls (WFTDA Apprentice League)
Brisbane, Australia

Offline jillintent

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 11
  • Stats Sheet: 0
Re: False Start
« Reply #13 on: May 07, 2009, 01:23:35 am »
When there is an official time out.  My thoughts are this is treated somewhat like a fire drill where everyone has a game plan to meet in one spot quickly and discuss what has happened from one source - the referee that is most involved.
This false start situation may just be a lesson for us; because I was told we were trying to figure out what happens when neither jammer yields.  I was the jammer ref and we had stopped the jam to figure out this rule and Reflmao was told they had both stopped to yield.
Either way, we are clear on the rule now - progress.
The lesson is: We need to organize our official time outs so that they are successful. We have an awesome group of ref's so this will be easy. : )
JILLINTENT
Roc City Roller Derby

Offline JoeXCore

  • Superhero Member
  • **********
  • Posts: 1022
  • Stats Sheet: 20
  • Will go anywhere to which I can afford to travel.
Re: False Start
« Reply #14 on: May 08, 2009, 04:48:52 am »
Speaking of false starting I just noticed a change in wording.

6.12.4.1   A Jammer false starts for being out of position at the Jammer starting whistle when she is touching beyond the Jammer line.

This means no longer does a jammer get a penalty for false starting if she starts on the pack whistle and then returns behind the jammer line before the jammer whistle.
Black n Bluegrass Roller Girls - head referee
MRDA Recognized Refree

 

Featured Product

 

Zebra Huddle Head Referee Bout Booklet

 

Featured Classifieds


ZH Files

How to Score a Point in Roller Derby
Rating: *****
Downloads: 3961
Views: 6537
Filesize: 327.61KB
Date: January 17, 2017, 04:21:03 am
Comments (0)
By: AdamSmasher
June 2013 Ruleset situational questions
Rating: *****
Downloads: 2577
Views: 5343
Filesize: 29.71KB
Date: February 07, 2014, 04:57:32 pm
Comments (2)
By: Crash Test Ref
Rules Q&A and Publications for 6/15/13 Document
Rating: (None)
Downloads: 2776
Views: 5977
Filesize: 26.27KB
Date: August 02, 2013, 04:10:40 pm
Comments (0)
By: Shaun Ketterman
Rules Q&A and Publications for 1/1/13 Document (4/24/13 Updates)
Rating: *****
Downloads: 3572
Views: 5963
Filesize: 28.07KB
Date: April 25, 2013, 05:45:34 pm
Comments (0)
By: Shaun Ketterman

Powered by EzPortal