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Author Topic: Multi-Jammer Penalties ABAB variant  (Read 3801 times)

Offline ShoNuff

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Multi-Jammer Penalties ABAB variant
« on: February 10, 2014, 08:16:53 pm »
I've had some conversations about handling chain multi-jammer penalties and had this one come up:

0:00  Jammer A sits and begins penalty service with 1 minute owed
0:20 Jammer A leaves box early having served 20 seconds
0:21 Jammer B sits and begins penalty service with one minute owed
0:41 Jammer A returns to the box and begins penalty service with 40 seconds of original penalty and a new penalty for the early departure.

Jammer B is released and jammer A owes 40 seconds of their original penalty plus 20 seconds to match jammer B's served penalty time.

1:11 Jammer B sits and begins penalty service with one minute owed.

At this point I want to release jammer A and have jammer B owe 30 seconds of penalty service.  This math says that I apply the first twenty seconds that jammer A serves after sitting to their second penalty and then have them begin serving the 40 seconds remaining on their first penalty.  So when jammer B returns, A has completed service on their second penalty and served 30 seconds on their first penalty (20 seconds before they left early and 10 seconds after they completed their second penalty).  Jammer B serves 30 seconds and both jammers have served 50 seconds as a 20 second and a 30 second penalty.


If people are comfortable with my approach in that scenario, this variation to pushes the approach of manipulating service order to avoid jammerless jam to an interesting place:

0:00  Jammer A sits and begins penalty service with 1 minute owed
0:20 Jammer A leaves box early having served 20 seconds
0:21 Jammer B sits and begins penalty service with one minute owed
0:41 Jammer A returns to the box and begins penalty service with 40 seconds of original penalty and a new penalty for the early departure.

Jammer B is released and jammer A owes 40 seconds of their original penalty plus 20 seconds to match jammer B's served penalty time.

0:51 Jammer B sits and begins penalty service with one minute owed.

At this point, Jammer A has served 30 seconds of total penalty time and has been given two penalties.  Jammer B has served 20 seconds of penalty time and has just arrived with a second penalty.

Can I release jammer A immediately and have jammer B serve only 10 seconds to bring both jammers to 30 seconds and 2 penalties?  The time would balance but that would mean I assign 10 seconds that jammer A served before they left early to the early departure penalty so that they can count the 10 seconds they served after they returned to the box and 10 seconds that they served before they left to balancing jammer B's penalty service.

Can I treat the jammer penalty time as a big pool that needs to be balanced or does each piece of penalty service have to attach to a specific penalty at the moment it is served?

Offline Darth Bling

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Re: Multi-Jammer Penalties ABAB variant
« Reply #1 on: February 10, 2014, 09:58:32 pm »
I've had some conversations about handling chain multi-jammer penalties and had this one come up:

0:00  Jammer A sits and begins penalty service with 1 minute owed
0:20 Jammer A leaves box early having served 20 seconds
0:21 Jammer B sits and begins penalty service with one minute owed
0:41 Jammer A returns to the box and begins penalty service with 40 seconds of original penalty and a new penalty for the early departure.

Jammer B is released and jammer A owes 40 seconds of their original penalty plus 20 seconds to match jammer B's served penalty time.

1:11 Jammer B sits and begins penalty service with one minute owed.

At this point I want to release jammer A and have jammer B owe 30 seconds of penalty service..

I believe Jammer B has to sit for the entire 1 minute and Jammer A will continue to serve their remaining 30 secs.   So, you'll have both jammers serving time in the box until Jammer A is released after 30 secs.

Can I treat the jammer penalty time as a big pool that needs to be balanced or does each piece of penalty service have to attach to a specific penalty at the moment it is served?

Umm, I believe you treat it as one big pool.

Offline Samuel Bergus

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Re: Multi-Jammer Penalties ABAB variant
« Reply #2 on: February 10, 2014, 10:21:28 pm »
Bling, I think you have misunderstood the original question.

If I understand Sho's post, he isn't asking what to currently do under the rules and procedures written, he is proposing a system in which the amount of time where there wouldn't be a jammer on the track would be minimized.

I think the idea of one big pool of time would work, but I think problems would arise when you don't have a stellar box manager/timer. The math gets more complicated when you are no longer dealing with whole minutes, thus the likelihood of mistakes goes up a bit, especially when you have to do the math in a stressful situation, like a live game.

Offline Darth Bling

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Re: Multi-Jammer Penalties ABAB variant
« Reply #3 on: February 11, 2014, 12:26:16 am »
Bling, I think you have misunderstood the original question.

If I understand Sho's post, he isn't asking what to currently do under the rules and procedures written, he is proposing a system in which the amount of time where there wouldn't be a jammer on the track would be minimized.

I think the idea of one big pool of time would work, but I think problems would arise when you don't have a stellar box manager/timer. The math gets more complicated when you are no longer dealing with whole minutes, thus the likelihood of mistakes goes up a bit, especially when you have to do the math in a stressful situation, like a live game.

Ah, if that's the case, then yes, I completely missed the point.  I guess there's no Hypothetical Rules Discussion under the NSO forum here...

Anyway, yes, I like Sho's proposal.  I actually thought of something quite similar a few months ago when a ref buddy and I where discussing jammer penalties and how to prevent the dreaded "both jammer in the box" scenario .   Yeah, you need to treat the penalty time as one big pool, otherwise it gets way too complicated.
« Last Edit: February 11, 2014, 06:17:39 am by Darth Bling »

Offline Charles Dickins

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Re: Multi-Jammer Penalties ABAB variant
« Reply #4 on: February 11, 2014, 05:24:49 am »
I've had some conversations about handling chain multi-jammer penalties and had this one come up:

0:00  Jammer A sits and begins penalty service with 1 minute owed
0:20 Jammer A leaves box early having served 20 seconds
0:21 Jammer B sits and begins penalty service with one minute owed
0:41 Jammer A returns to the box and begins penalty service with 40 seconds of original penalty and a new penalty for the early departure.

Jammer B is released and jammer A owes 40 seconds of their original penalty plus 20 seconds to match jammer B's served penalty time.

Is that how it works? I would have thought Jammer B would sit for 20 seconds and Jammer A would return to serve the full minute of her second penalty.
Charles Dickins
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Offline Darkjester

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Re: Multi-Jammer Penalties ABAB variant
« Reply #5 on: February 11, 2014, 04:27:49 pm »
Holy crazy penalty box Batman!


ok, you also have to ask yourself "why" A left the box early..

If A left early because A was released.. Then A does need to return to serve penalty time. However, you run into the conundrum of broken derby because no A serves additional time; and B serves time so you end up with both of them serving 1 minute or more instead of the abbreviated penalty time for jammer swap outs.

GIven the 'direct' time table presented..

I would err on making A) return for 1 second that they left early before B sat.

Then release B at the 21 second mark.

Now, if for the sake of simplication the 0-20-21-40 isn't exact, that throws a wrench into things.

Because realistically and through the rules, A should be released when B sits.
B should only serve the time A sat.

Now, where the sticky also occurs..
If A left early on her own without being released, A also serves an Additional Illegal Procedure penalty Minute.

A would serve 1 second for leaving before released, and 1 minute for Illegal Procedure..
B would sit for the 21 seconds, leaving A in the box.
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Offline Charles Dickins

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Re: Multi-Jammer Penalties ABAB variant
« Reply #6 on: February 11, 2014, 05:42:46 pm »
Holy crazy penalty box Batman!


ok, you also have to ask yourself "why" A left the box early..

If A left early because A was released.. Then A does need to return to serve penalty time. However, you run into the conundrum of broken derby because no A serves additional time; and B serves time so you end up with both of them serving 1 minute or more instead of the abbreviated penalty time for jammer swap outs.

I think it's safe to say that the skater left of her own volition, otherwise Sho would have stated it in the OP.

GIven the 'direct' time table presented..

I would err on making A) return for 1 second that they left early before B sat.

Then release B at the 21 second mark.

Now, if for the sake of simplication the 0-20-21-40 isn't exact, that throws a wrench into things.

Because realistically and through the rules, A should be released when B sits.
B should only serve the time A sat.

Now, where the sticky also occurs..
If A left early on her own without being released, A also serves an Additional Illegal Procedure penalty Minute.

A would serve 1 second for leaving before released, and 1 minute for Illegal Procedure..
B would sit for the 21 seconds, leaving A in the box.

To briefly follow this tangent, in this scenario I would sit B for 20 seconds and release her without requiring A to come back to the box. I released her 1 second early. I'm not going to make her lose the X seconds it takes her to get back to the box to sit for the one second that I shaved off her time.
Charles Dickins
NHRD - HNSO

Offline ShoNuff

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Re: Multi-Jammer Penalties ABAB variant
« Reply #7 on: February 12, 2014, 02:35:49 pm »
This is a statement Rules posted on how to enforce multi-jammer penalties when a jammer leaves the box early:

Quote
Official Rules Response:

7.3 is only applicable when one jammer is actually serving time (either seated or standing with 10 seconds or less).  In the example above, Green Jammer sits after Black Jammer has left which means that section 7.3 is inapplicable at that point.  Once Black Jammer is sent back to the box and is seated while Green Jammer is serving time, section 7.3 is relevant.  Green Jammer is released at the beginning of the next jam pursuant to 7.3.3. and Black Jammer must serve the time remaining on her initial penalty (13 seconds) plus an equal amount of time as Green Jammer had served of her one minute penalty.

-Rules Comm

It's pretty much the same scenario we've been talking about but the jam ends before jammer A (Black Jammer) returns to the box.

Offline PackMan

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Re: Multi-Jammer Penalties ABAB variant
« Reply #8 on: February 12, 2014, 03:43:24 pm »
An attempt made to equalize the time spent in the box across both jammers, only works if both jammers committed the same number of penalties.

Let's say that A is serving time for two penalties.  B comes to the box (having committed a penalty) while A is serving her first penalty.

At this point under current practice B would be released as soon as she sits, and A's time would be reduced by the amount of one penalty.  That keeps things fair while avoiding a jammerless jam.  If we tried to equalize the time served we would have to hold B in the box.....or....we would have to say to ourselves that the current system already does a pretty good job of equalizing time for the purpose of avoiding a jammerless jam.

Offline Charles Dickins

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Re: Multi-Jammer Penalties ABAB variant
« Reply #9 on: February 12, 2014, 03:43:48 pm »
With blockers, it's so much easier to wrap my head around. Open seat -> butt in seat. But since jammers have their own seats, my brain processes their absence like someone hit the pause button. They're still there, but the time has stopped. So the scenario makes sense when I approach it by asking "what if she was a blocker," what swapping B releases A with A releases B is making my brain cramp. :)
Charles Dickins
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Offline ShoNuff

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Re: Multi-Jammer Penalties ABAB variant
« Reply #10 on: February 12, 2014, 06:07:31 pm »
To make an analogy to blockers I would say that a jammer who leaves early has put themself in queue.

They are on the track owing time and will be coming back, but they aren't in the box in the meantime.

And since a jammer isn't allowed to be in queue, they've also just gotten themself a penalty.

 

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