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Author Topic: Should the ref cap be higher? (split from: Standing Head Ref)  (Read 11058 times)

Offline mick hawkins

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Should the ref cap be higher? (split from: Standing Head Ref)
« on: January 24, 2009, 05:45:45 am »
Has anyone asked the question why 7 refs is the current cap anyway? I understand 2 jam refs, for scoring purposes. But why not just 1 pack ref? Rugby, a very physical game with a bazillion rules, has only one referee. So who made the decision to allow 7 refs in the first place?

perhaps because in rugby the focus is on the ball - and you're not actually allowed to tackle someone who doesnt have it

our fine sport has many points of focus and action at any one time - just one of the many reasons it craps all over rugby  ;D

plus, i think there's actually 3 refs in rugby - if you count the ones on the sidelines
four if you count the video ref
actually, seems like a lot of refs just to watch one ball   
 
« Last Edit: June 02, 2009, 06:11:32 pm by DayGlo Divine »
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Offline bronco

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Should the ref cap be higher?
« Reply #1 on: January 27, 2009, 09:44:10 am »
WFTDA 3.1 says:
Quote
8.1.1 Each bout will have no less than three skating referees and no more than seven
referees total. At least one of the referees should be WFTDA certified.

That means that eight refs are not an option.  I know that some leagues use additional "skate and wait" out-side pack skaters, so only the active (skating) referees count.  The other waiting referees cannot make calls until they are skating to keep the number at seven.

Most popular position seems to be the head ref watching the rear of the pack.  From this vantage point one can see pack/no-pack formation, rear-ward OOB, and directly observe the scoring passes of each jammer. 

Have also done the combo Head Ref and Jam Ref role after a ref became injured in a bout.  A bit tougher, but still fun.

... Bronco
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Offline Darkjester

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Should the ref cap be higher?
« Reply #2 on: January 27, 2009, 06:49:25 pm »
Which is true only if its a WFTDA Sanctioned(or that R word I'm not coming up with off the top of my head. Regulation/Registrated?) bout.

If its a bout where its two non-wftda teams who are using the WFTDA rule set the two leagues can agree to use additional refs as a 'home' rule.

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Offline DayGlo Divine

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Should the ref cap be higher?
« Reply #3 on: January 27, 2009, 06:51:54 pm »
Which is true only if its a WFTDA Sanctioned(or that R word I'm not coming up with off the top of my head. Regulation/Registrated?) bout.

If its a bout where its two non-wftda teams who are using the WFTDA rule set the two leagues can agree to use additional refs as a 'home' rule.

The word is "regulation," and you're correct.
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Opinions expressed here are mine. Not WFTDA's, not Charm City's, and not those of Zebra Huddle as a whole.

Offline Stegoscorus

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Should the ref cap be higher?
« Reply #4 on: January 27, 2009, 07:31:23 pm »
To clarify, yes, we would only use 8 refs at our intraleague bouts, which are played by the WFTDA rule set, but are neither Regulation nor Sanctioned.  Our refs who perform the Head Ref role in a bout are all capable of doing so as a pack ref, as they have done and will continue to do in interleague games, to keep the total at 7 referees. 
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Offline Rev. Riot

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Should the ref cap be higher?
« Reply #5 on: January 28, 2009, 05:30:54 am »
It warrants clearing up...

Having more than 7 referees in a bout making calls on skates, whether they are skating simultaneously or not, is against the rules and would keep a game from being regulation or sanctioned. So, Bronco, the reference you make to referees just not making calls until they're skating and the other referees aren't, not kosher. If you've got four in the middle you can only have three on the outside TOTAL, not skating at that moment in time, but total, for the bout.
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Offline Crash Test Ref

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Should the ref cap be higher?
« Reply #6 on: January 28, 2009, 08:44:11 am »
Which is true only if its a WFTDA Sanctioned(or that R word I'm not coming up with off the top of my head. Regulation/Registrated?) bout.

If its a bout where its two non-wftda teams who are using the WFTDA rule set the two leagues can agree to use additional refs as a 'home' rule.

While technically true, the goal (in my opinion) for all using the WFTDA rule set should be to work towards comformity with all WFTDA rules.  There may be good reasons for new leagues to make exceptions of various sorts, but in general, ignoring this rule is much like ignoring any other (not penalizing unintentional track-cutting, allowing skaters to join a jam after the whistle, for example).  The further we go down the house rule road while still claiming to use the WFTDA rules, the less consistent the game becomes.  Conformity and consistency become even more important as players and teams travel around the world to play in other venues.
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Offline Ballistic Whistle

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Should the ref cap be higher?
« Reply #7 on: January 28, 2009, 09:05:59 am »
Which is true only if its a WFTDA Sanctioned(or that R word I'm not coming up with off the top of my head. Regulation/Registrated?) bout.

If its a bout where its two non-wftda teams who are using the WFTDA rule set the two leagues can agree to use additional refs as a 'home' rule.

While technically true, the goal (in my opinion) for all using the WFTDA rule set should be to work towards comformity with all WFTDA rules.  There may be good reasons for new leagues to make exceptions of various sorts, but in general, ignoring this rule is much like ignoring any other (not penalizing unintentional track-cutting, allowing skaters to join a jam after the whistle, for example).  The further we go down the house rule road while still claiming to use the WFTDA rules, the less consistent the game becomes.  Conformity and consistency become even more important as players and teams travel around the world to play in other venues.
While I share your philosophy on this, each league has the right to make their own decision on how to adapt the rules. Two leagues can play renegade if they both agree to it.

Offline lets get it Shawn

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Should the ref cap be higher?
« Reply #8 on: May 22, 2009, 07:10:55 pm »
You can always get a penalty wrangler this always helps with getting the penalties to the penalty trackers. Their job is to watch outside penalty and report to the penalty trackers, tell the head ref who has 4 minors, listne for the inside referees to call their penalties and make sure the penalty trackers caught the calls.  Makes things really easy for keeping eyes on the pack and reporting penalties.
    I like the cap at 7 but at 8 it could be
   4 outside refer's
   2 pack referees to include head ref
   2 jam skaters
  this would not be so cluttered
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Offline JoeXCore

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Should the ref cap be higher?
« Reply #9 on: May 22, 2009, 07:18:19 pm »
Could always have 10 one for each skater :)

4 or so very fast refs on the outside.

2 jam refs 4 more pack refs on the inside. Would cut down on need for penalty trackers since each ref could track their own.

anyway....

back to for serious talk (and back to me writing a 4.0 test for skaters)
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Offline FNZebra

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Should the ref cap be higher?
« Reply #10 on: May 22, 2009, 07:44:04 pm »
a good argument for why the head ref should be on skates is just to reduce the time needed to skate to one bench to explain something, skate to the other to explain same thing, skate to announcers to explain what was being explained, skate to scorekeeper to adjust score, skate back into middle to allow next jam to start.

I support lifting the cap to 8; until we do make that move to Voodoo/JoeXCore's one skater = one ref vision of loveliness.
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Offline JoeXCore

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Should the ref cap be higher?
« Reply #11 on: May 22, 2009, 07:48:20 pm »
I really don't think the cap needs to be raised. I think we should allow the penalty box person to make calls, however I don't think more refs are needed in general.
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Offline Dee Shotcalla

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Should the ref cap be higher?
« Reply #12 on: June 01, 2009, 04:31:51 am »
We use 2 outside, 2 inside, 2 jammer, and 1 standing inside head ref.
So far so good  8)
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Offline L8R SK8R

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Should the ref cap be higher?
« Reply #13 on: June 01, 2009, 06:51:14 pm »
I really don't think the cap needs to be raised. I think we should allow the penalty box person to make calls, however I don't think more refs are needed in general.

If you allow penalty timers to make call then what about jam timers that catch falst starts that pack refs miss? What about letting penalty trackers send skaters with 4 minors to the box? I'm against NSOs being given the authority to make calls. Refs are refs, NSOs are NSOs.

I agree with raising the cap, but raising it to 9. We've recently started skating with 3 inside pack refs, with the head ref in the middle. That way I can keep the pack together (while the front and back inside pack refs give out OOP penalties), and I can drop off penalties by other refs that didn't make it to the trackers. Its nice for a head ref to be able to leave the pack and not be left with too little refs. We're also flirting with the idea of 4 outside pack refs skating a full lap and wait technique (2 refs at turn 1, 2 at turn 3). That way there would be 2 refs watching the pack on the outside every lap.

The problem with the cap of 7 referees is that there's actually only 5-6 skating at one time. With our method of 9 refs there's 7 refs actually skating at the same time.

Offline MaxxChaos

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Should the ref cap be higher?
« Reply #14 on: June 01, 2009, 07:48:13 pm »
That way there would be 2 refs watching the pack on the outside every lap.



In my understanding of 3 outside skate-and-wait, there are always two refs watching the pack, one skating and the other either preparing to take the front or watching the back as the pack is "passed off"... but I digress,  as it stands now I feel like we owe two dedicated inside pack, two dedicated jam refs at the very least and using one of these refs as a head ref compromises the focus.
I don't think we've got a coverage problems in making calls (nor do we need more people making more calls) but rather that we need a dedicated "manager" that keeps watch over the bigger picture... I'm curious to know how many leagues use two outside refs to allow for a head ref spot within the 7 ref cap...
« Last Edit: June 01, 2009, 07:57:02 pm by MaxxChaos »
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